to feel a little differently about nurseries following the abuse stories?

[in3minds]

Hi - both my dcs have gone to/go to nurseries, this choice was partly (but only partly) based on my feeling they were 'safer' there than with a CM - that was specific to our circumstances, so in no way saying all children are safer in a nursery. I was happy enough with the nurseries but the stories about Paul Watson being guilty of rape and the little teds story have made me feel a little uneasy...AIBU and do any nurseries you know have any controls in place that could stop abuse happening?

Do you feel the same about all men because some of them are convicted of rape?
All women because of Rose West and Myra Hindley?
All holidays abroad because of Madeleine McCann?
All doctors because of Harold Shipman?

I rest my case.
(but if you do, then you need help)

when you get a clientele that basically is silent i.e. too ill, young, old to let others know whats going on, bad people will always take advantage :(

bucharest - no, but then in general:
All women because of Rose West and Myra Hindley? - I would ensure my kids knew not to hitchhike/accept lifts from strangers
All holidays abroad because of Madeleine McCann? No, but I wouldn't leave my kids asleep in a different building
All doctors because of Harold Shipman? No, but I expect suspicious deaths would be investigated in the light of what was learned from his case

so - no case as such, I just do wonder what might have been learned to stop these things happening

It has altered my perception slightly. One of the reasons that I chose to use a nursery was that I thought it was safer- people monitored the behaviour of others, it wasn't just one adult on their own. My issue was more about 'temper' issues - if a carer was finding it all too much then another could take over. To me this seemed a good thing. I don't think the dangers the OP refers to ever crossed my mind.

Unfortunately, CRB checks mean that people can become complacent.

CRB clearance doesn't mean you've never done anything you shouldn't, or never would, just that you've never been caught.

I agree in3minds, it's not about becoming paranoid, but it is important to be aware.

I think the saddest thing is that many parents are already suspicious of men who work with young children, and this just fuels their fears further.

My ds goes to a nursery and these cases don't make me reconsider or panic. I am wholly confident in the place he goes. I remember when the Vanessa George one happened, the nursery sent a letter out to all parents stating that new guidance given was that staff were not allowed mobile phones out at all.

We are all still allowed to take pics at nativity plays etc. These cases are widely reported but thousands of children go to nursery and school safely each and every day. Investigations will take place and I feel sorry for male nursery workers who get put more under the spotlight and their career choices questioned, due to a minority.

in3minds.....abuse is everywhere!
i should find out today,or tomorrow from police reports and tests wether my own dd has been abused.(non physical,videoed whilst showering)

was she in a nursery?

no,at a sleepover at a trusted friends....where she had been going over 3 years. as had most of the girls in their friendship group

is she all over the internet?? i have no idea,but its her darkest fear at just 16

sorry,meant to add. she is the eldest of my 5 but i cant ban sleepovers because of this,but yes,i'm more reluctant

obviously not the saddest thing, but I mean with regards to people not connected to the nursery. just wanted to clarify.

Absolutely horrendous for the children involved.

When I worked in the private nursery we were convinced there was a hidden camera in the nappy changing room. We usually had 2 members of staff in the nappy changing room at a time anyway. But as a Nursery Nurse I am concerned that men who genuinely want to work with children and not as a paedophile ring, will be tarred with a brush which has no reason to be the case. I've worked with some fab men who have been better than the lazy members of staff I've worked with in the past who thought it would be an easy job.

Should add there is one male student worker at ds' nursery and I've never had a seconds doubt about him, in the same way I wouldn't doubt one of the girls.
I think it helps to actively participate in the nursery community.

Just to reasure you, these cases are very rare. I have worked in nurseries for over 15 years i have never witnesses any odd behaviour from any member of staff. I have worked with some of the most caring people who i have ever meet who love children and love the job and work very hard in which can be a hard job at times for very little pay.

merle - yes, that is what I meant - I suppose a sense of safety in numbers in a way.
ILoveTIFFANY - sorry to hear that.
And I don't feel paranoid, rather a little less easy, and wondering if any controls will be/have been introduced or this is just 'one of those things' and there are abusive people everywhere?

websticks - that is great to hear. I have had a few 'odd' experiences - once came early to pick up my son and one of the carers had put him in a dress and was laughing at him - but that, and once or twice a sense that carers were bored and disengaged was about the worst.

in3minds, I know what you mean. I accept it's not rational and that statistically there is much greater risk from family and friends but of course as a parent of a young child these things cause concern just because it is so horrific.

I actually just can't imagine how it could happen at DS's nursery. So far as I am aware no member of staff is ever alone with a child - children are either in the main room for their age where there is always more than one member of staff or if they are having nappies/clothes changed etc there must be two members of staff present. I wasn't aware that this was a paritcularly unusual policy on the part of DS's nursery.

sarah... thanks. Do 2 members of staff bring them to the loo as well?

My DD goes to nursery and I don't have the slightest doubts about her safety. I'm very confident that the staff at her nursery all care about the children and have their welfare at heart.

I don't think any nursery (or any other place where children are) can guarantee to prevent abuse, but I would have thought there are fairly simple measures that can be taken to minimise the likelihood. For instance, not allowing staff to have mobiles out. And having strict rules for nappy changing- I might be a bit uneasy about a nursery where the nappy changing was carried out with just one member of staff behind a closed door. At DD's nursery, the toilet and changing area is quite open and there's a window onto the main room, at adult height. The adults can look into the toilet area (not the actual cubicles) so there'd be no real opportunity for any abuse to be carried out, but the children still have a good amount of privacy. I think it works really well.

I understand your concerns but then where do we draw the line?

We could apply the same to primary schools, nannies, babysitters, teenage boys based on one or two cases....

Yes - in3minds - it is a really good set up. All of the rooms have their own toilets just off to the side of the room and within the toilet room each individual toilet cubicle has saloon style doors on them so the child can have privacy but you can still see quite a lot IYSWIM. So if a child needs assistance with the loo one person actually assists and another person is in the main toilet room at least.

I think there is safety in numbers. That's why we chose a nursery

I would guess that a fantastic childminder is a great asset, but there are no guarantees with anything. My aunt's friend is a childminder and she was very dismissive of the social work requirements for her house. They insisted she should have a fence somewhere (can't remember where or why) and she took it down the day after they inspected her house because she felt she knew best

It's always a worry leaving a non speaking child in the care of anyone. I've always bent over backwards to try not to have to do it.

Not so much because of abuse, but because that child can't tell me if it's being ignored/neglected or generally being cared for in a shit way.

The level of trust a parent has to put in that carer is massive so any little abuse of that trust is unspeakable really.

I don't have any doubts about my ds's nursery, but there are times when staff are alone with the children (like nappy changes).

I've also worked in nurseries and none of them have had policies of staff never being alone with children - there was often times when you were alone changing nappies/clothes, supervising sleep etc.

But I didn't choose nursery care for "safety in numbers", so it hasn't changed my feelings.

SarahBumBarer - how does that work in your ds's nursery, if two staff members are in the nappy change room who looks after all the other children?

My DS is in a fantastic nursery, and I just don't understand how this could have happened.
the children should never be left alone with one member of staff.
all nappy changing facilities/toilets are not closed off.

If every nursery followed the same rules this couldn't happen, surely?