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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to feel a little differently about nurseries following the abuse stories?

48 replies

in3minds · 08/06/2011 09:34

Hi - both my dcs have gone to/go to nurseries, this choice was partly (but only partly) based on my feeling they were 'safer' there than with a CM - that was specific to our circumstances, so in no way saying all children are safer in a nursery. I was happy enough with the nurseries but the stories about Paul Watson being guilty of rape and the little teds story have made me feel a little uneasy...AIBU and do any nurseries you know have any controls in place that could stop abuse happening?

OP posts:
muminthecity · 08/06/2011 12:12

It hasn't changed my views about nurseries in general, at all. These cases are still very, very rare, and children are sadly far more likely to be abused in their own home than they are at a nursery/school.

RitaMorgan · 08/06/2011 12:13

I'm not sure it's always practical though exhausted. Say you have all the children outside in the garden and one has an accident - do you have one adult take them inside to change, or send two adults in and leave one adult supervising 12 kids? Or bring all the children inside?

Or at lunchtime, staff need to have breaks - can you really have two staff supervising the sleepers, and two staff supervising the couple of children who aren't napping? Nurseries often don't have enough staff to cover all that.

Depending on the layout of the building it's also not always possible to have open-plan changing facilities - if the nursery is in a Victorian house for example.

exhausted2011 · 08/06/2011 12:29

RitaMorgan, I understand
DS's nursery has been specifically designed as a nursery. Open plan, with changing facilities private but not closed off.

I just feel like there should be a set of rules, that should largely be adhered to.
Is there a specific set of rules? I don't know. I only know what they do in DS's nursery

And the ratios should allow for this

RitaMorgan · 08/06/2011 12:38

Ratios couldn't allow for it without pushing up costs though, and parents couldn't afford it. Childcare takes up a huge chunk of family budgets as it is.

tomhardyismydh · 08/06/2011 13:06

At a nursery where my dd attended there was a male worker. I did not get a very good feeling about him, mostly personality wise never raised any suspicions just that he was very immature and would say very silly child like things, I doubted his insight into child development. This is an opinion I kept to my self.

however in joining his room my dd was not at all comfortable in him changing her nappy and refused on more than one occasion, This is something I was unaware of until one day dd refused and the staff took a zero tolerance on this and insisted my dd had her nappy changed by this man. This was handed over to my and I questioned how they were able to force my dd and had they resorted to physical force, the staff member felt very much on the spot and squirmed her way out of this stating she didnt actually know but would try to find out.

On the way home I asked dd what had happened and she said she was crying and hiding in the corner and asking for female member of staff who said no that the male worker was going to change her, he then lifted her from the corner and proceeded to take her into the toilet and held her knees down so she couldn't kick and changed her bum.

I was very upset about this not because he was a man but that dd had been physically forced into an intimate situation with someone who she didn't feel safe with. whether this was a man or a woman, however my dd was unhappy with him providing personal care because her is a man and those where her words.

I did discuss this with the manager and insisted this man does not provided any nappy changes to my dd, the manager was not very supportive of my requests, but I stood my ground and insisted.

Balsam · 08/06/2011 13:26

I think a lot of parents choose nurseries over childminders for the 'safety in numbers' reason and these cases weaken that argument. As it's generally thought that a childminder is better than nursery for very young children, it could be a good thing in that it evens up the balance.

But at the end of the day, these are rare and isolated cases and you can't make any generalisations about nursery care from them.

in3minds · 08/06/2011 14:32

Balsam -'As it's generally thought that a childminder is better than nursery for very young children, it could be a good thing in that it evens up the balance.'
sorry really don't understand what you mean? That it is good these bad things have happened for argument's sake??!

WIBU to ask in a nursery what protections they have in place? These might be isolated incidents, we all might feel we trust nursery carers and obv don't want to be overly suspicious but to feel completely safe about the care of children who can't always tell us what is going on surely it would be ok to ask what measures might be in place?

OP posts:
nannynick · 08/06/2011 17:33

There will always be bad people around, even with there being systems in place they will on occasion try to commit an offence.

Having looked briefly at the recent case, I've noticed that the media are not reporting all the facts... few mention the Ofsted report and compliance visits for example.

From the compliance report 3/3/11 Little Star's, Nechells B7

ensure that there is an effective safeguarding policy which includes the procedure to be followed in the event of an allegation being made against a member of staff and that all staff are aware of the safeguarding policy 

conduct a risk assessment of the premises both indoors and outdoors as well as activities provided in the nursery or on outings, and review it at least once a year or more frequently when the need arises

develop an effective induction programme for all new staff and ensure that adults looking after the children have appropriate training, skills and knowledge

ensure that all staff have contracts of employment which specify the terms and conditions of their employment, that job descriptions and specifications reflect the current requirements for the post and are used effectively as part of the settings recruitment procedures 

take steps to safeguard and promote the welfare of children by producing and implementing an effective Whistle-blowing policy and a separate E-safety policy

produce and implement an effective code of conduct for staff which is known and understood by all staff 

introduce an effective induction programme for all children to support staff's assessment of the child's starting points and improve systems and opportunities to share information and communicate with parents

produce and implement an effective disciplinary procedure which is known and understood by all staff

produce and implement and effective system of performance management including quality assurance monitoring to demonstrate that adults looking after children have appropriate qualifications, training, skills and knowledge 

End of information from the compliance report


Reading this list may not mean much to you, or you may get a similar impression to me, in that the procedures in place at the nursery were not that great.  In the summer of 2010 they picked up on safeguarding issues, same again this compliance report.  Some staff it seems to me didn't have contracts of employment, induction training, know about some procedures.

Yes the nursery nurse abused a child (why someone would do that is beyond my understanding) but the lack of systems being in place to do with staffing I think may well have been a factor... it enabled that nursery nurse to have the opportunity to abuse a child.     We don't know the details of the case, we don't know exactly where the abuse took place, so we don't know how it came about that it was not noticed by other members of staff.   

in3minds - yes you should ask about what procedures are in place, for safe staff recruitment, for giving children as much privacy during toileting as possible whilst keeping staff safe from abuse allegations.  

As a male childcare worker I work on my own but parents make the recruitment decision, they don't rely on someone else to do that.  At a nursery you are letting someone else decide on who to recruit, so you need to trust them to make the right judgement and monitor the situation (effective system of performance management).

Cases like this most recent one really affect me as parents may see any bloke working with children as being an abuser.  I wish there was a way to stop such people entering the profession, alas you can't predict what someone might do in the future (only in the movies: Minority Report).
beesimo · 08/06/2011 17:51

tomhardy

I can't stand what you have just written you leave a child of yourn in a place she is held down against her will and her private parts exposed by strange man and other people know and see child crying and force child to submit to it and you take her back there to TALK about matter.

I would never leave my DDs with anyone but blood kin until they grown but I know you all say well we HAVE to send ours to strangers but this is beyonds the beyonds. You have made me vomit me tea it is despicable

tomhardyismydh · 08/06/2011 20:23

bessimo, I do understand where you are coming from, but unfortunately it is not always possible to leave our children with relatives, my dd has no living grandparents and my sister and sister and brothers and their wives also work. I have no aunts and uncles around, my family scattered across the country.

Whilst I agree that what had happened was unacceptable, My dd was uncomfortable with the situation and force was used, however probably no more force than I would have used my self in a given situation where my dd was resisting a nappy change, the difference being I am her mother and she has relationship based on trust with me and my actions are predictable, so where she would not be distressed with my self getting on and changing her she did not have this trust in him.

I may add this man did not molest my daughter, just over stepped the mark in terms of force in my opinion. I took appropriate steps to ensure this situation never occurred again and made clear that it was not acceptable within my realms of parenting for the staff to act in this nature. My requests where respected.

hadagutsfull · 08/06/2011 20:34

in3minds YANBU to ask what measures they have in place. We introduced new procedures when the Vanessa George case first came to light. This was to protect the staff as much as the children as I have never had cause to suspect any of the staff. We sent out a letter to parents informing them of these changes and have no problem with any new parent/carer asking what the procedures are. It's your child's welfare you are concerned about and you need to be happy with their procedures.

beesimo · 08/06/2011 21:00

Never in all my life have I held bairn down to change nappy, if they are in bate I leave them alone 10 mins the say 'come on lets get that nap nap off' and they lay down and let Mam/Aunty see to them. Why do you have to bully and upset bairn to change it? Now I understand why so many who have children at nursery can't potty train them you are giving them fear of natural body function.

If you can't leave with relative why don't you get live in lass, then little girl only has to get used to one person instead of being mishandled by people who don't love her. Live in lass will grow to love your bairn, nursery just love your money.

RitaMorgan · 08/06/2011 21:15

Ah yes, so easy to get a live-in nanny, why don't we all do it?

Maybe because we don't all have £500 a week and a bedroom to spare...

I have had to pin children down for a nappy change. Don't want a poo smeared baby crawling all over my living room ta.

nannynick · 08/06/2011 21:26

"Live in lass" ? Could be a live-in bloke, or a live-out bloke or live-out lass.

Nannies are horribly expensive compared with nursery care when it involves only one child. Becomes viable when you have 3 children, can be viable if you have 2 children and work hours that other types of childcare do not provide, or you don't want to get children up in the morning.

5318008 · 08/06/2011 21:38

also I recall from safeguarding courses that most abuse is perpetrated by a family member

AandK · 08/06/2011 21:50

in3minds If this had happened to you then I'd see your point but otherwise no.

imo I never really liked nurseries anyway I never felt the children got a lot of one to one time.

My ds was 12 months old when we first used a childminder and what a disaster that turned out to be. she liked to smack children if she thought they were naughty despite their age and she admitted to me after about a month that she'd smacked my ds. I removed him straight away and reported her. I also threatened her with violence, probably not condoned but I still feel the same knowing what she did.

of course I felt guilty for leaving him especially when I realised why he was screaming every time I left him.

But it didn't put me off finding a new childminder and what a gem I replaced her with. my ds is now 9 years old and we are still in touch with his lovely childminder even though she has emigrated to australia we are even going to stay over there with her at christmas.

one bad experience doesn't mean that they will all be bad

tomhardyismydh · 08/06/2011 21:51

living in a one bedroom flat earning just enough to cope hand to mouth, would not unfortunately allow me to get a "live in lass". Whilst I think your intentions are always well meant and caring bessimo I feel your grasp on reality gets more and more confusing to me. If I am correct bessimo, you live a fairly comfortable life financially, with quiet allot of family support and a partner earning or a family business generating a good standard of living for you and you'r family. Not everyone is in that position. Even if they are people chose to use a nursery for many many good and positive reasons. The same thing could occur with a live in nanny "lad" or "lass" and require from me similar action with the added stress of having to sack someone.

tomhardyismydh · 08/06/2011 21:55

I also managed to potty train my child bessimo. but things have change from the olden days and most parents understand that a child does not need to be potty trained before 1 yr old.

beesimo · 08/06/2011 22:15

tom

I am sorry I upset thee I didn't know you were single Mam, I am sure it is right hard for you at times, but you did put a very shocking post up and you can't expect that no one would react to it. Iam not going to say anything else because it probably wouldn't help matters.

I am not old btw I am just 'old fashioned'

tomhardyismydh · 08/06/2011 22:41

I understand you are not old. You didn't upset me as such, I was just trying to get you to see that life just isn't always that simple for the majority of families. It was pretty shocking but was managed, it was more of a reflection on the gender issue, but that sparked more of a choice debate. childcare is widely used and in my opinion a positive aspect of parenting and child development. My dd did not come to any harm and my actions made sure of that.

To be honest as a single working mother childcare options are far easier for me as it is subsidiesed in my tax credits, a far harder thing to juggle financially for a couple, I was at the time on a good enough salary.

beesimo · 09/06/2011 17:50

bump

in3minds · 09/06/2011 18:23

beesimo - as tom said, not everyone has family who can help or space for someone to live in.
and thanks for those who said it wnbu to ask about procedures.
And in general - rather than the tired old 'leaving children with strangers' line - can we just accept that most people do what they think is best for their children given their circumstances and that might include nursery care.

OP posts:
Katyrah · 09/06/2011 18:31

I think it's natural for parents to worry, and although I'm sure all parents would prefer to leave their DCs with family or trusted friends it is unfeasible sometimes!

You just have to look at nursery policies; when I've worked in nurseries you have never been allowed your mobile phone on the floor with you, also nappy changing areas can always be seen by other members of staff, as are toilets.

It's just about being sensible and not overreacting and causing unnecessary fear in your DCs.

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