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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that children in 21st century UK should not be living like this?

242 replies

mrspear · 07/06/2011 19:58

See this report from the BBC

Apologies if this has already been mentioned

OP posts:
fatlazymummy · 08/06/2011 09:15

I agree with Greenstocking. It may not be politically correct to say so but there is a subculture of irresponsible parenting. I do know some parents like this, my own sister is one of them. Give 2 people the same amount of money and they will spend it in different ways.
With regards to food vouchers in America, the system doesn't always work. Some people [including some shopkeepers] will defraud the system by trading them for alcohol/drugs. There is no one system that will work in all cases. There will always be some people that will play the system and others that will fall through the cracks and not get the help they need.
chummybud1 I think it's disgusting that there are no swimming pools nearer to you. Everyone should have access to swimming and sporting facilities and safe play areas.

onagar · 08/06/2011 09:28

Sometimes it IS the parents. Often the case that they don't have a clue rather than being evil as such. You may see more of that as kids grow up and start families having only mastered advanced swearing and txting.

The housing though is something else. If you are poor and are put in a place like that there is nothing you can do about it. That will increase now as new housing benefit rules are being brought in to ensure that poor people are moved to poor areas where they belong and out of sight of decent folk.

Laquitar · 08/06/2011 10:39

I'm not expert but surely if someone lives in filthy house, wears dirty clothes and turns into alcohol instead of buying food that means depression (not surprise if you live -or rather exist- in the mercy of every politician and new policies, in bad housing with little money and on top you are called 'lazy'). You don't need to see them jumping from bridges to believe that they are depressed.

Tbh if i was on benefits right now or had a disabled family member and was terrified of the new policies and my life was depending on what new idea will come in Dave's head plus having idiots patronising me every second and attacking me because 'i live in luxury and should't have kids' etc i would bloody turn into valiums and fags!

Ormirian · 08/06/2011 10:51

Oh dear. The milk of human kindness appears to have curdled on MN.

TandB · 08/06/2011 10:58

There are a lot of knee-jerk reactions on this thread, as well as a lot of easy answers that won't actually work. If it was as simple as 'replace benefits with vouchers' don't you think it would have been tried by now?

Vouchers won't solve anything as all that would happen would be that people who are determined to get what they want would sell them at sub-value and finish up with less money to spend on their own wants and, as a result, they would spend less on their children's needs.

In the criminal justice system, I meet a lot of people who live pretty crap lives and behave in a pretty crap way, but relatively few of them have children who aren't being fed or clothed. Deliberately feckless, neglectful parents are in the minority. There are far more parents who are simply struggling to make ends meet.

I have posted about this before but my mum worked in a school on what was considered to be the most deprived area of Tyne & Wear. There were parents on that estate living in real, sickening poverty and they weren't going out boozing or buying flat screen TVs. There was one woman whose husband had left her with a child and all his loanshark debts. Her child was fed but that was it. The school used to give him clothes and she would sell them the same day, or the loansharks would come to her house and take them off her. If she had been given vouchers they would have been taken off her too. When she got her money she went straight to buy food so that there was less for the loansharks to take. Eventually the school agreed to keep a coat and jumper at school for him but he didn't take them home. This woman had no prospects. She was never going to be moved out of the area, the police couldn't sit outside her house all day and night, she didn't have anywhere else to go. She was stuck with her child in real, grinding poverty and misery.

What would people suggest as a solution to the problems of people like her? Vouchers that would be taken off her? Remove her child? Take her to court?

ginnybag · 08/06/2011 11:02

Some of it IS down to piss-poor parenting. I speak from experience.

To be clear, my mum and step-dad weren't on benefits, so that stereotype isn't a factor. My mum was a 'SAHP' (and that's written like that for a reason, not because I have any issue with SAHP's, but because my mum seemed to miss a key component of the role) but my step-dad earned really quite good money.

However, both smoked, both drank, both ate ridiculously large quantities of takeout instead of cooking and my mum, at least, was, frankly, lazy, with a chip on her shoulder the size of the Isle of Man. And, yes, I realise it isn't nice to talk about your mother that way, but it's simply the truth.

I was isolated from a lot of it, because I also had the care and attention of my Grandma, my Dad and my Great-Aunty.

My brother and sister, however, were considerably younger than me, and by the time they were at school, my Grandma had died, my G.Aunty was too elderly and ill to help and, obviously, not being their father, my Dad was not in the picture for them. If it gives any indication, my DH told me recently that there were a few years whilst I was at Uni were his mum - HIS mum - had genuinely thought she would end up caring for my brother and sister when they inevitably ended up with me.

I can quite clearly recall the moment that I realised just how much of the poverty my brother and sister endured was caused directly by my mum and step-dad's attitude. I'd left for university by then, and had come home for a visit, bringing with me my then new boyfriend DH. My mum asked him how much he was earning. He was in his first job, at 19. His answer was £9,500 a year.

She laughed, looked at me and said, 'That's all? That wouldn't keep me and your step-dad in fags and beer.'

That comment came the day after I'd bought my 9 year old brother a new coat and some new trainers because his existing coat was too small, the trainers had holes and it was January. My mum had, apparently, told him she had no money.

Cocoflower · 08/06/2011 11:10

Your right Ginny.

I know other people treated like you and their parents werent poor or depressed. One ended up being raised by his grandparents it was so bad.

lesley33 · 08/06/2011 11:11

"I'm not expert but surely if someone lives in filthy house, wears dirty clothes and turns into alcohol instead of buying food that means depression."

It can mean a lot of things.

  1. Serious uncontrolled serious mental health problems like schizophrenia. Self medicating with alcohol/drugs to deal with frightening symptoms such as hallucinations is not uncommon.
  1. Someone who is an alcoholic/drug abuser or mixture of two. Can be for a wide variety of reasons.
  1. Someone who is struggling to cope. Could be depression, but also could be because they can't cope with what life is throwing at them. I have met people who have to deal with so much, that I know I wouldn't be able to cope in their situation.

For example, 1 woman with serious physical health problems (uncurable brain tumour causing variety of symptoms), violent ex who periodical;y attacks her in the street/tries to or succeeds in raping her, 1 child who has epilepsy that is poorly controlled and scummy neighbours who threaten her, break into her house, etc. She actually doesn't have a filthy house, dirty clothes - but many people couldn't cope with a life like this and would give up.

  1. Someone who honestly doesn't know how to look after themselves and their house. I know it is hard to understand, but if you have been brought up as a child where the house has always been filthy, it can be hard to understand what you need to do to keep things okay. This possibility is increased if you have low intelligence - this may be as a result of foetal alcohol syndrome from having an alcoholic mum.

I don't think most people come across situations like this often and so don't really understand why it happens. Yes there are a small number of people who are just horrible and don't care about their kids; but there are more that are struggling to do their best but failing.

Miggsie · 08/06/2011 11:20

Yes, my SIL had her youngest child taken from her and placed in the care of her grandmother. SIL bought booze, fags, drugs before she even thought about food. Open her fridge and there was always beer, not any food, and occasionally some milk, but my BIL bought that, when he remembered.

It is sad when parents do not seem to give a stuff about their children. About 4 years after her daughter was taken away SIL made a bid to get her back "because she needed the child benefit" (to feed her drugs habit). BIL was separated from her at that point but fought to keep his daughter with her granny. Granny died and so now my niece lives with her older sister who has a place of her own. BIL is disabled to the point of being unable to care for a child, but he visits.

It is very sad that my niece has grown up with a mother who barely notices her existence and put herself before her child's needs. My MIL was buying clothes and food for the children for years, often the kids would visit in shoes 3 sizes too small and so she would buy them all bigger shoes and more clothes, while the children's mum (SIL) continued to buy beer and drugs.

The good outcome is the children have all grown up, gone to university and got their lives sorted out. But it was such a struggle for them, all caused their parent being neglectful.

Conversely my MIL was very poor and my DH was brought up in a very poor household, free school meals etc yet the 4 children were always fed and clothed properly, and certainly there was no neglect, and the house was spotless.

lesley33 · 08/06/2011 11:20

And yes I agree, sometimes it is just down to crap parents.

Laquitar · 08/06/2011 11:31

You are right lesley. I said 'depression' but yes i should say 'mental illness' in general and also the other reasons you have mentioned.

Astley · 08/06/2011 11:35

Personally I think the idea that benefits should give you a decent standard of living is insane. The state should provide you with enough to feed, cloth and shelter your family. Not more than that.

I don't think it should provide enough for holidays or a car etc. I think that is what a job is for.

Tax money should not be given for people to spend on fags and booze. Bring back vouchers I say so that the children are eating properly, so that they are clothed properly. I don't care about the stigma of it one jot, I care about the children getting what they need however that has to happen.

lesley33 · 08/06/2011 11:57

Astley - Vouchers are used in America. It is not a solution. Feckless parents use them illegally to buy alcohol and fags from shopkeepers who are happy to pretend it was used to buy food.

It also penalises those who are trying their best as some of teh cheapest places won't take vouchers because of the admin e.g. fruit and veg market stalls.

It is a small number of families who deliberately behave like this. And I think the only real solution is to take their children into care when they are still very young and have a good chance of being adopted.

What would help more families is if:

  1. Proper cooking lessons were given in schools using cheap basic ingredients. So not bring in ready made pastry and a tin of cherry filling to make a pie, as I know some schools do. But making cheap meals with cheap ingredients. You would be amazed how many people don't know how to do this.
  1. Teach basic mending/sewing at school. People don't need to know how to make their own clothes - but they should know how to sew on a utton, replace a zip and mend a tear.
  1. It was made illegal to charge more for gas and electric through a pre paid meter.
lesley33 · 08/06/2011 12:01

And if there was proper support for people with serious mental health problems. There is a desperate need for specialist agencies who will work with people with serious mental health problems who are also alcoholics/drug abusers. Agencies tend to deal with one or the other, and those who have both often have no-one who will really help.

ivykaty44 · 08/06/2011 19:34

I am not altogether convinced by the governments volunteer program, but possibly volunteer grannies for some of these families as a way in to help and support the whole family through their lows. The things that have been mentioned above about meal planning and budgeting could be offered along with practicle and mental support.

There was a woman living in a block of council flats in north London who turned the flats around as a good place to live, she got rid single handed of the driug users in the stairwells and made people in the flats take care of their own enviroment by hassling the council constantly until they made the flats better and did the jobs that needed doing. By hassling over and over again the council couldn't "forget" the problems and ignore them. Although these things cost money in the long run they actually saved money in various ways.

This same woman then went to a block of flats in Plymouth and did the same, the residents there didn't believe she would be able to change their flats, they where different from the place she lived yet she showed them how to change and they did change and they where themselves surprised at the community spirit and what they acheived. They collectivley telephoned the council and hassled them, then hassled them again and made them visit to explain the changes they needed.

if I lived in a damp infested hovel I think I would give up on the cleaning and not feel good about myself, which if I added in a mental illness, no family support, little money to survive would I feel like cleaning and washing clothes to be mouldy and damp by the time they had dried.

ivykaty44 · 09/06/2011 00:21

lesley33 - I have a friend who does, mental illness and addictions, the addictions can be other additions for example gambling may also be a problem to someeone with a drink and drug problem so they would get help with the three addictions and the mental illness.

But of course his job is very shaky at the moment with so many cuts Sad

lesley33 · 09/06/2011 07:53

Glad to hear that there is some help for people with multiple problems. Although not so good that this service may be cut.

In the Northern City I live in, there really isn't anything for someone with serious mental illness and drug/alcohol abuse.

Services for people with severe mental illness offer only basic help saying they don't have the skills or knowledge to help someone with alcohol/drug abuse. And those for alcoholics/drug abusers say they don't have the skills to deal wiuth someone with severe mental illness!

So they end up getting very little help. Crazy.

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