to find some modern aspects of feminism patronising to women?

[glitterkitten]

I say "modern aspects" as i am more than aware that historical feminist activism has led to my being able to work in a professional job, has given me choices, has improved the general quality of life for women since etc etc.

An example of what i find patronising to the extreme is the recent protest by feminist groups at the opening of the Playboy Club in London.

wild haired, wild eyed women waved placards and protesting about how playboy exploit women, how evil men were manipulating women and that essentially, women who worked within such industries needed to be saved.

how can these women think that they need to save other women, who are simply exercising their right to make independent choice regarding how they make a living?

these women will deny / ignore the fact that some women working in such an industry (in all its guises) CHOOSE to earn a living that way. they earn a good wage, shock horror, they may even ENJOY it!

i find it so patronising. Intensely.

as i said above, i work in a professional career. i have no issues with strip clubs, lap dancing bars, playboy etc. i have accompanied my husband to such clubs on occasion. those women if anything, are taking advantage of the men who sit and dribble at them. the women have the last laugh with the money they make which is undoubtedly higher than the national minimum wage. would a feminist seek to tell me i am wrong??

Dadof2littlebuggers But....the crux of this thread is what is considered to be 'real exploitation'? Do you want to define that? Where do you draw the line between someone sexually abused in childhood, illiterate with poor work options and someone who's passport has been removed and is beaten by their pimp to keep them in line?

Your argument of - oh anyone who objects to the sex industry are unattractive prudes who couldn't get a job as a stripper even if they paid the strip-joint has been done to death and is a poor one. As you point out, it is not an 'intelectual' (sic) argument and neither is it the argument that people (not just women - read some Robert Jensen) who object to the exploitation of women in the sex industry rely on.

Are your little buggers boys? I am assuming gay men have exactly these 'animalistic' urges you describe on seeing an attractive man. Presumably, if they so choose (and they don't have to be gay to be a rent boy, I suspect the majority are not) you would have no problem with them selling their bodies, either as a free choice or because they were hooked on heroin?

Dadof2littlebuggers, as a fellow Second Lifer I will just point out that users buy the 'sexy' skins and animations IN ORDER to make money from the spotty teenage wankers users who get the virtual thrills. If you were drawing a conclusion somehow that these avatars are inherently 'pretty' and eager to show off, you're being extraordinarily naive.

Likewise, lap dancers in RL aren't doing it to show off! They're doing it for the money. A pretty girl can show off quite adequately with her clothes on.

Playboy is old hat, but the message it gives society is the same as ever. It gives both women and men an unrealistic, stereotypical and yes, misognistic view of men, women, sexuality and sex. This pervades society in general, and protesting about the Playboy club isn't going to change that, and there are far worse and more violent images in magazines and clubs, but then again, the message is the same, and you have to start somewhere, so I can't agree that it's patronising for people to protest against it. It's also great to see that not everyone is totally apathetic and/or resigned to the treatment of women (and men) in our society!

If someone wants to pose naked for money then that's their choice, but you can argue that it's not a real choice if it's the ONLY way they can see to make money as their aspirations and opportunities are so low. All jobs exploit workers to some extent, but it's the message that is so ingrained in our society about how women and men should behave and what is considered normal sexuality, that can be harmful, and seems to encourage violence / sexual violence that I would protest against.

I gather that your student nurse, who lap-dances to fund her studies, ends up with a sense of deep contempt for men. Hopefully, she makes a distinction between men who pay for sex shows and men who don't - but the widespread existence of such places means that men are being denigrated by them, as well as women. The more it goes on, the more young women are getting a very unpleasant insight into "what men like", and they will carry that forward into the world.

Really, it's the shabby end of "what men like" and I don't think anyone does the male sex a favour by pretending it's fine.

I suspect the women who work as lap dancers and claim they 'loved it' and found it empowering are not being honest - who would want to admit that they work in a job they find demeaning and sleazy? Read Living Dolls by Natasha Walter where she interviews lap dancers, who admit they hate their job but have no choice.

Dittany my blood ran cold at this post;

"I will never forget coming off the overnight train from Aberdeen to Kings Cross when I was 15 and seeing all the men hanging around there obviously waiting to see what pickings there were from the runaways that morning. Luckily I was meeting friends, but some 15 year olds who got off that train would have nowhere to go."

I''ve also heard first hand stories from people who were picked up at Kings Cross as teenagers. Is this station monitored any better these days - do these Fucktards still hang about there - or do they get moved on?

Yes I read what you wrote, SGM. You've chosen to ignore the overarching point that I made that some people choose to enter the sex industry, thereby not all people are 'victims' of it. I gave the example of Katie Price, pick any of the page 3's you like and add them to it. Add to the list the women who perceive that they can earn 'decent money' from escorting.

The whole point I was making is that some people choose the industry, many don't. I don't know why you persist in excluding men from 'victimhood' as you call it either.

I find your point that nobody chooses to be an addict very silly and unnecessary. Of course they don't choose addiction but people do make the choice to take drugs for the first time, alcohol for the first time, etc. Nobody thinks they will become addicted, in spite of the overwhelming evidence showing them the strong likelihood. Some people still make that choice. It doesn't mean that people don't have reasons for the choices they make or options they take.

I'm not lacking in empathy but I'm lacking in the will to argue piddly points back and forth. I don't see what purpose it serves either.

I've just read that article about the Playboy Mansion with the account of one of Hefner's "girlfriends":

There was the whiff of baby oil too. St James writes that Hefner would sluice himself with this before having sex, and many of the women blamed their yeast infections on the oil. Sex sessions would start with Hefner taking Viagra, and then lying there "like a dead fish", writes St James, while women gathered around, climbing on and off in turn, and occasionally shouting: "Oh daddy." "I never saw Hef use condoms. Period," she writes. After he had sex with each girl, "he wiped himself off with a wet bath towel."

Is there a man alive more repulsive?

dadof2 You have spectacularly missed the point. Well done.

For God's sake, it has nothing to do with jealousy. I am not remotely jealous of a woman who has to dress as a 'sexy' bunny/take her clothes off/have sex with people for a living, I can't think of anything worse. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my self-esteem and nothing wrong with my sex life either. I consider myself an attractive and sexy woman and so does my OH. I am glad to be able to use my knowledge and my skills in my career. And let's not kid ourselves that, Playboy bunnies aside, a woman does not have to be attractive to work in the sex industry.

Yes, the OP probably was excited to be at a strip club with her husband. Most humans (male AND female) are sexually excited by the sight of other naked humans behaving provocatively. I used to really enjoy porn myself until I began to question it and read more about it. I couldn't watch it now.

If you have read all of the posts on this thread and some of the first-hand accounts of women who have worked in the sex industry and you still can't see what the 'problem' is then you are either deliberately ignoring the horrible truth because it suits you to do so or I fear you are not very bright.

BTW...lol @ 'if a woman undresses infront of a men he literaly feels different'. Ahahahahaha.

I fear the OP is nolonger reading this thread. However I did just want to state my opinion on the whole "feminists are patronising" idea.
From what I have read on this thread I understand this to mean that the posters (who I am assuming are female) who expressed this are annoyed by what they see as feminists telling them how to think or how to behave.
This is an entirely reasonable point. I absolutely hate being told how to think and behave; but, equally, this is the reason why I became a feminist in the first place.
Why? Because people have been telling me what I must do to be a women my whole life. Starting with what to wear and how to act: that to be accepted and find a man I ought to wear makeup, shave my legs, wear certain clothes. Then my life experiences began to teach me that arguing, shouting or just disagreeing with people would have me labelled as "hysterical" or worse. It taught me that if I wanted to have multiple sexual partners and not want a full-time relationship with a man I was a "slag" or "slut". It taught me that women were not people but commodities: that it was acceptable to sell a daily newspaper with topless women on page three to be studies, as if it were a statue or a landscape and not a person at all. That it was acceptable for women and children to be trafficked to meet male "needs". It taught me to think that all this was normal, natural even and that objecting to it was pointless as it wouldn't change anything. I disagreed. I don't like to be told what I must and must not do.
The whole point of feminism -I think- is not to tell women what to think. It is to point out that the status quo is not normal, it is not natural, and there is no reason that it should go on forever. It is to ask them to think for themselves and not let society's norms and codes (packaged by books like "Women are from Mars") tell them what is and isn't femininty or masculinity, or what is or is not acceptable for a women or a man to do. Feminists think women and men are more than capable of thinking for themselves and most certainly being able to apply the same moral and emotional criteria when thinking about all sexes.

it may suprise some of you that i consider myself a feminist, women should chose for themselves without a gang of old school feminists telling them not to wear make up, the feminist movement has changed society over the last century from the suffergettes to now imeasurably, and for the better, but it isnt suprising they got a few things wrong in their early days, i would imagine most movements critiria would change over time. one of the movements criteria was to celibrate female sexuality, in a time when women wernt suppose to enjoy sex this was , in it's day radical. however, it seems some women are excited by pornography, that is quite quandry, as old school feminists are anti-porn.

i'm sure there is exploitation in the sex industry, and i abhor that and @hellatwork, no i wouldnt want the job of saying where exploitation starts and free will ends, i would leave that to proffessionals. also i think your right that gay men will feel the same for men as straight men feel for women, would i want my boys to go into the sex industry , well, no i wouldnt but i also wouldnt want them to prostitute their bodies for cash on a building site as i do daily, being a playboy bunny isnt an option for me.

@ garlicbutter what you said about second life is totaly wrong, second life is full of strip/lapdance/poledancing and escort places full of dancing girls and about 1 or two watching if your lucky! exhibisionism is at work more than voyerism, besides , if you've seen one naked avatar you've seen them all.

I think I missed the bit of the feminist movement where we fought for the right to wank over exploited women....was that in the 90s? And to assume that men making money out of girls stripping is not exploitative is peculiar and a little dim.

The power never lies with the woman in a situation where one man pays another man for a woman to strip.

Gosh, I didn't know that builders have their orifices penetrated and have to suck cock as part of their daily work. You learn something new on MN everyday doncha?!

do i need to make it clear that my point was that there is a train of thought that all work to leser or greater extents is protitution, i thought you would have gatherd that.
how many of you would ban all porn given the chance ? if you also knew it wouldnt go underground and be more exploitative

Sigh. I will yet again trot out a simple tale that will hopefully clear up the builder/penetrated orifices confusion.

My (French) neighbour is an accountant. I teach English. These are our jobs. My neighbour sometimes helps me with the accounts for my business. In exchange I help him with his English. I don't suck his cock and let him shag me.

This is because normal healthy reasonable people understand that sex is linked to privacy, intimacy, boundaries and bodily integrity. Teaching English or building, on the other hand, are not.

DO2LB - you have it spot on!
I get totally sick of posting on any feminist threads and being told my views are not academicaly sustainable, or "have been proved to be not valid"
hem hem, they are my views, this is AIBU. I feel far sadder for the care assistants I manage, who are manipulated to work for little more than the minimum wages because they have been encouraged to be nurturing supportive people and then exploited than I do for sex workers who are either enjoying their work and reaping the profits or doing it to feed drug and drink problems that they are not tackling.

Sex work puts you at risk of disease and rape.

Which is why I wouldn't want to do it.

I would not want to have the saliva and bodily effluvia of strangers on my body or being squirted into my orifices on a day to day basis, condoms or no condoms.

Nurses and health professionals who routinely come into with blood, urine, fecal matter and mucous, wear fairly robust gloves and plastic aprons. They are tested for hep b and hiv.

And most porn that I've seen (not seen a lot I'll grant you) doesn't seem to involve condoms and does involve a lot of seminal fluid being splashed about. Why would ANYONE want to risk their lives and health by doing this work?

I'd be terrified if any of my children grew up to do this type of work.