to find some modern aspects of feminism patronising to women?

[glitterkitten]

I say "modern aspects" as i am more than aware that historical feminist activism has led to my being able to work in a professional job, has given me choices, has improved the general quality of life for women since etc etc.

An example of what i find patronising to the extreme is the recent protest by feminist groups at the opening of the Playboy Club in London.

wild haired, wild eyed women waved placards and protesting about how playboy exploit women, how evil men were manipulating women and that essentially, women who worked within such industries needed to be saved.

how can these women think that they need to save other women, who are simply exercising their right to make independent choice regarding how they make a living?

these women will deny / ignore the fact that some women working in such an industry (in all its guises) CHOOSE to earn a living that way. they earn a good wage, shock horror, they may even ENJOY it!

i find it so patronising. Intensely.

as i said above, i work in a professional career. i have no issues with strip clubs, lap dancing bars, playboy etc. i have accompanied my husband to such clubs on occasion. those women if anything, are taking advantage of the men who sit and dribble at them. the women have the last laugh with the money they make which is undoubtedly higher than the national minimum wage. would a feminist seek to tell me i am wrong??

She was 17. Who do you think might have guided her to look for a live-in job? Her helpful dad, perhaps?

I agree with BabyReindeer's post to a degree. 17 is almost an adult and certainly not a child anymore. If there wasn't any help available from parents, what about from school counsellors, teachers, friends, etc.?

I do consider that one bad decision can lead to a whole set of other events and subsequent poor choices, perhaps until it gets to a stage where the choices aren't really choices anymore.

BabyReindeer Your apparent lack of compassion makes me very sad. In desperate situations people do desperate things, whether or not you think they should. Clearly Frida is not illiterate but what of the young women that are? They're excluded from working as a chambermaid or waitress by dint of the fact that they may not be able to fill out an application form. If a young woman has been abused, is vulnerable and is subsequently targetted by people with unsavoury motivations, do you see how it might be easier for them to enter prostitution/lap dancing than looking for a job not in the sex industry? Especially if they have fuck-all self-esteem.

I agree with your point about care workers being underpaid but that isn't relevant to this discussion. Just because people are exploited in other professions, doesn't mean they aren't exploited in the sex industry.

Besides, care workers are not as at much risk of rape, violence and STIs as prostitutes are.

Yes, Witch, and I'm sure that's what happens to the majority of sex workers. They are exploited at a vulnerable time, then it gets worse.

Which is a far cry from the happy-hooker cry of "Let them all have their lovely jobs in this totally harmless industry!" - isn't it.

'perhaps until it gets to a stage where the choices aren't really choices anymore'

I think that's exactly right Lying. As for school counsellors, teachers, friends.... all can play a part in helping young people make good choices but sometimes people slip through the net and that is just a sad fact of life.

The age of consent is 16, you can get married at 16, you can join the army at 16, and until recently you could die for your country at 17 here
you now have to wait until you are 18 for that. Whilst no one would condone anyone paying for sex with a 17 year old it is perfectly legal to do so.

Is this the same Playboy industry that sells items of clothing for pre-school girls with their logo on?

Choice

Yes indeed addressbook. And the same Playboy industry that owns several hardcore porn channels which show films such as 'Hijack my Hole, Asian Sex Tramp, Giant Juggs [sic] 3 and My Wife's a Slut'. How very charming.

There are tales from the Playboy mansion that would make most women feel rather nauseous.

interesting article here

I think there is far too much generalising going on in this thread. I think it's patently ridiculous to refer to a 17 year old as a 'child'. They are on the cusp of adulthood and to infantilise them is to negate their abilities to make any meaningful decisions. Should we prevent them from learning to drive? Having sexual relationships? Making career decisions? Deciding on further education or not? No, of course not.

I was working as a waitress at 17. It would never have occurred to me to look at jobs in the sex industry. there would have been an enormous stigma anyway.

I accept that some 17 year olds are 'older' than others, they are more mature and perhaps have had a better upbringing. I detest the notion that the sex industry is the 'sink option' for poor decisions. Some people invariably do find themselves at a very young age, at the mercy of 'pimps', as per Jasminetom's post. That is truly heart-wrenching.

The fact is that young women and men are making decisions for themselves, to take drugs, alcohol and/or make easy money and other than the children who are forcibly taken into the industry, I think it is a huge disservice to those forced to immediately insist that all sex industry workers have been abused in the same way.

I think that it would be a very good thing if the media stopped sexualising children, as a start, male or female - and focused its undeserved clout on educating young people towards the practical help and advice that is available for pursuing other options.

It's very difficult to write posts on this subject that aren't going to inadvertently 'strike' somebody, but I really cannot and will not buy into the notion that women - and men - are always victims to whom their fates 'happen', not unless it is conceded that there are some women and men who 'choose', through a variety of ways, to capitalise on selling their bodies.

Gies' me the boak ana'w hen! These establishments make me feel sticky but women should to make their own decisions,including ones other women don't like, like being a tramp for money.

Feminism is essentially a broad church, encompassing seemingly contradictory beliefs 1st,3rdwave, post feminist etc so I fail to see the logic in some women saying don't let the patriarchy dictate what you can or should not or feel; that is for the sisterhood to decide.

The burden of 'damaging to women as a whole' is just as oppressive as the patriarchy. What if these women do not want to be defined as women, perhaps their identity is a goth/emo, or class, or religion.

I would imagine numerically these 'feminists' are greatly outnumbered by those who support the bunnies but are less likely to march about it. Probably more women engaged in sex work than count themselves as feminists.

So yes they are very patronising, as they assume they know best. They don't I do :)

Lying....Do you not believe profoundly catastrophic and persistent damage in childhood can have a lasting effect?

Or that there are external forces that can shape a whole generation or group?

Are people seriously trying to argue that a 17 year old with a history of family abuse is not in need of protection, and would not have limited choices!! How truly cold and unsympathetic, and as CDV says completely ignores the cumulative effect of the abuse.

To the person who thought that professional services,law , accounting firms etc had 50% female partners...you are way off the mark.

SGM... I am saying the same thing on every thread but perhaps not clearly enough.

I absolutely agree that some women don't have choices, I'm not arguing about that at all. What I'm saying is that I disagree with is the blanket assertion that 'women in the sex industry are victims'. Some of them have willingly put themselves in that position, in 'harm's way'. That assertion is on every 'feminist' and porn thread that comes up and it's annoying.

I am not talking about young children, so don't bring them into question.

If you're saying that teen runaways have no sources of help WHATSOEVER, and that there only option is to take up selling themselves then I'm not talking about them either.

For avoidance of doubt, I'm not talking about men and women trafficked from other countries and unable to work.

I think I've covered all of the 'exclusions' now.

I AM talking about women and men who are adult enough to make decisions, have options available to them and decide to take drugs and/or alcohol and enter the sex industry. If you're saying that there aren't agencies or help available for them then I don't believe that.

There is something terribly wrong with our sex-obsessed media and if that can't be tackled head-on then our women need educating just as badly as the men do. It is everybody's responsibility to take care of themselves as best they can. Some people actively choose to be exploited (Katie Price and others), mistakenly believing that they are doing the exploiting.

I get the distinct impression that women are being perceived as passive, vulnerable and at the mercy of whatever it is men want them to do. I'm not bringing up my children to think that, not EVER.

I hope I've cleared this up now, SGM because I don't intend to keep arguing this same point with you. The feminist 'crew' has the right to post where it wants as do we all, but the only place you're going to find nodding heads is on your own board section.

I agree that some people just love sex and being an exhibitionist and it doesn't come from being blind to oppression....I think, although it's a little hard to tell given the sexualisation everywhere. But then there are people who believe in many partners and so why not some that enjoy sharing it i=with the wider world.

virtual worlds like 'second life' are full of perfect girls in strip clubs , seems when a girl or woman has a perfect body, even a virtual one many cant resist to show it off.

very few woman are beautiful enough to get a job as a playboy bunny and to laugh at the dribbleing sad men who part with there cash just to see their beauty. it isnt suprising that the women who cant get those jobs and maybe who husbands are ogleing at the bunnies are upset about it. jelousy isnt a very intelectual argument though, better base it on the dreary worn-out exploitation thing.
of course where real exploitation of women is concernd , i'm totaly against it, trafficing goes on i know, but not in a playboy club.

men find women attractive, they allways will, if a woman undresses infront of a men he literaly feels different, chemicals are released into his blooddstream. it's very powerful. no amount of femisist debate will change these facts ,and if peacocks were the dominante species on this planet it would be the other way round. ever notice how the sexes behave differently at strip shows? women shout and scream, the laugh and heckle, in short they have a good time .....men, they remain silent, they watch , they drool, scared to blink incase they miss a nano-second of nipple .

it's only nudity, really, everyone has a body, it's remarquable that one sex is excited by the other just by being naked granted, but as long as they are not forced, exhibisionist women should be able to do whatever job they wish and not get slated by judgemental women or bible bashing men.

if the OP enjoyed going to a strip club with her husband, thats fine , maybe that excited her, if the rest of your are so uptight about the ass to get that, thats your problem. the OP is clearly more at ease with her sexuality and the dynamic in her relationship that most of you. hell, loads of women i know get off on porn together with their partners . really whats the problem.?

Is that a joke post Dad?

no

It might also be that all the people who object are dried-up old lesbians who couldn't get a man, mightn't it Dad?

I know plenty of men that are atheists who do not wish to exploit women.

I've never heard of women paying for sex at a Chippendales spot or getting turned on, although I've never been.

Would you be happy for your daughter to strip?