To think that spelling/grammar should count toward NVQs?

[sungirltan]

I made a complaint today at dd's nursery about the appalling grammar and spelling in her learning journey. I spoke to the nursery owner, not the keyworker who looks after dd. I love dd's keyworker, I think she is brilliant and I am 100% happy with her care of my child plus she makes a big effort to let me know how dd is getting on and what has been done during the day. She is and all around lovely girl.

Owner was very sympathetic and glad I had brought it up but explained that the college/company who run/assess the NVQs do not check spelling and grammar on the student's written work and that this has been a big problem in the past. One parent hit the roof last year because a card came home which read 'happy farther's day'.

I am appalled. At level 3 of an NVQ you are alowed to open your own nursery - yet nobody cares that you cannot spell/construct clear reports or paperwork.

AIBU to think that if you work in education in a teaching capacity that your written work should be of an accpetable standard? I am not cross with the NN themselves - just the poor, poor standard of support and teaching they are receiving.

lrd - actually they arn't. the local college dont mark spelling at nvq level and my friend who is an nvq assessor in the midlands confimred that it was the same there.

it does seem tough that these people are paid so little and yet expected to be perfect on these skills

What on earth has payment got to do with fundamental life skills?
My grandmother left school at 14 and had the most brilliant literacy and numeracy.
Are people seriously suggesting that we don't need to bother to educate those who are destined for poorly paid work?

nursery staff are paid very little infact you get paid more to work in a supermarket but most staff do it because of the love of the job so as you said she takes the extra effort to communicate with you every day and your 100% happy with the care she provides so that should be enough.

your child is developing and getting the care you want them to have so dont pick on a little thing like a learning journey which nursery workers do in their own time amid all the other paperwork which needs to be done and yes the setting will say they all get time to do it in work hours but it never happens try and every setting might

I have a degree and am currently doing a level 3 diploma in TA type stuff (has replaced the NVQ level 3)

Spelling and cogency of argument are most certainly taken into account. Not just that but general presentation too! An internal verifier returned someones work recently because they had changed font type by accident mid-report! We are required to analyse and evaluate educational theory, practice and our own performance. The 'knowledge' part of my portfolio is currently over 300 pages long, in addition to that I've done 300 hours in placement, been observed by my tutor and have had to write performance based reports on my own practice (another 100 pages or so!!)

A level 3 course is pretty rigorous nowadays, if someone didn't have good standards of literacy, numeracy and general knowledge then they wouldn't stay the course.

I'm fairly intelligent (ish) but I've found it really challenging.

I've shelved any plans to do a PGCE - it would kill me

Your child is in nursery and so spelling and grammar are not really that important to her at the moment. Whatdo you think she will remember (if anything) about her nursery years? That she had a lovely, kind key worker who she had fun with and felt safe with or that the said key worker made spelling mistakes in her learning journey. I understand that it is annoying ( I am a natural pedant) but her skills obviously lie in childcare, not literacy. be happy that you have a lovely key worker for your child.

Are people seriously suggesting that we don't need to bother to educate those who are destined for poorly paid work?

exactly. this is EXACTLY my issue.

i get it - nvqs are aimed at the less academically able but they seem like a cop out by the government. it seems like the message is 'yeh we admit it - school has failed these kids but its fine because they can do and nvq which is even more negligent!'

spelling and grammar in this context matter to me because the life skills and prospects of young people matter to me. i totally support vocational qualifications but it seems a waste of an opportunity not to provide some support and guidance with written work.

piginmuck - of course i am happy and agree with your thoughts. i dont expect dd to notice or care what was in her journey when she was 20 months and neither should she. its just this instance has made me aware of wider failings of further education.

sungirl - no, not what I was suggesting. I was responding to someone's comment about 'PHD level English' because it got up my nose, I'm afraid. My spelling and grammar is poor; these are not skills that necessarily related to how good you are at other things. These things are in no way 'fundamental life skills'. The world isn't going to stop turning because someone has poor spelling and grammar.

I do agree with you that NVQs (from what little I've seen) can be used exactly as you say, as cop-outs for people who've been failed by the system. But I don't agree spelling and grammar are so fundamental.

What are the alternatives to NVQs then ?

Because I don't see them as failures

alistron don't say that! I am on gtp next year
I did level 2 nvq as I had no childcare experience whatsoever, found it good for the basics

i said 'phd level engligh' upthread. i couldn't think of a written equivalent to the term 'received pronunciation'. again, i have at no point inferred that literacy skills are reflective of practical. again, this is not my issue.

i don't know what the alternatives are to nvqs but i'm sorry to say that i do think nvqs (1 and 2 levels especially) are tokenistic qualifications that are not worth the time the students spend completing them.

I have to disagree, having actually done one
I was lucky enough not to have pre-existing spelling difficulties, however - but I did get pulled up on presentation

NVQ's are a good alternative for some that are more than capable of doing certain jobs but cannot manage academic success. Not everyone who has poor literacy skills have been failed by the educational system.

My eldest DD is severely dyslexic and currently doing Level 4 NVQ, she is supervising a MH unit and doing a much better job than the previous supervisor who had a degree. Literacy skills are not as fundamental as other skills in every occupation.

well maybe its because of peoples attitudes towards nvqs (wickedwendys post being a perfect example)rather than the qualification itself ?

suntangirl-i think that NVQ level 2 at least makes you think about the job that you are doing, so it does in a round about way increase your skills, in the workplace, not on paper, which is the aim of them.

sungirl - ok, fair enough. I was being sensitive about the dyslexia, I think.

What I've seen from people trying to get to NVQ level 1 (which is what I've heard most about and I can understand it may have given me a pessimistic view as its such a low level), there doesn't seem to be much understanding that some people will have gone through a lot of school struggling with the way they've been taught and examined, only to find exactly the same system in place. And not everyone thinks the same way. I think it can be demoralizing. I don't see that spelling/grammar are hugely important in this case and have sympathy with someone who's getting picked up on it.

i would see academic success post 18 as being able to write essays with references etc. wrt the learning journey i am talking about writing a few lines of text in a box. we as a society are failing young people if we are awarding qualifications to those who cannot even do that. what i mean is they should be taught - not that they dont deserve to pass

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think YABU.

The education system, and a person's parents have let these nursery workers down if they can't even manage basic spelling and grammar. But they should not be prevented from doing a job that they could be very good at because of poor English. When they are lucky if they are on £7.50 an hour, it's too much to expect that they are qualified in Early Years Education as well as having a high standard of English.

Saying that, when I did my diploma in childcare, simelar to level 3, we were marked on English and presentation. But when everything is written with the benefit of spellcheck, it can't be that easy for assesors to get a true picture of a students English.

They are vocational qualifications,isn't that the point of them? to be an alternative to more academic qualifications

I think there should be more vocational options available

but they are being taught - they are being taught the techniques and legislation concerned with looking after your children safely! I agree bird - the nvq most certainly makes you reflect on your practice. I thought it provided an invaluable grounding in the principles of childcare, actually - and it wasn't by any means the walk in the park you might expect!

I agree usual. If vocational qualifications were properly differentiated from academic ones, and some money was put behind making them really attractive to employers, I think we'd see far fewer people struggling and failing to try to do academics when tehy really don't want to be doing it.

I really think this spelling and grammar issue comes down to snobbery in the end - sorry, but I do!

Most people who can pass a NVQ level 2 can write 'a few lines in a box' you are told to keep care plans to the point and short. Ive come off a 12 hour night shift practically unable to write, so for that reason the odd spelling mistake is allowed, in the case of the card being mispelt, if the manager knows that someone has trouble with literacy, it doesn't take much to put safeguards in place to prevent mistakes.

My DD gets excellent support from her manager because she is the exact type of person that the manager wants in her role, not someone who can spell correctly everytime.

There are job roles for which we should value the personal qualities and skills that the worker possess as the most important.

YANBU to be at the literacy levels of the nursery worker. She has been let down at some point by her educators, self evidently (barring dyslexia)

YABU to complain to the nursery. It does not affect her ability to care for and nurture your dc

theflyingonion - thank you. i know i sound u about complaining to the nursery. tbf it was an informal chat with the owner rather than an outright complaint. i made it absolutely clear how happy i was with dd's care by her keyworker and as most of you say, her care is far more important than spelling.

'I really think this spelling and grammar issue comes down to snobbery in the end - sorry, but I do!' you sre entitled to think that but dd will be at this nursery until she goes to school. but you can say that and 'oh it doest matter, skills are more important' but eventually in a professiona that involves literacy and education, lack of these skills will hold back nursery nurses eventually and i think thats really unfair.