Measles Outbreak?

[MoaningLisa]

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

Murphy, I know that you weren't aiming it personally at me. :) But, I am one of those you are referring to as freeloaders, as are my children, both my parents, my late grandparents and so on.

I personally have never denied that I and my children may be benefitting from what I consider to be others' foolhardy shortsightedness. Each to their own.

Have name changed to post. Am a GP who has seen extremely ill children with measles while working in third world countries and wouldn?t wish that on any child. We also still have thousands of people in this country who are deaf, brain damaged, or have rotten damaged lungs, as a result of a measles infection. Please get your dcs immunised. <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=jdc325.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/measles_3.jpg&imgrefurl=jdc325.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/european-immunization-week/&usg=__M1LRDGg5-CAXqXG9N5xRrlPdbb4=&h=2398&w=1601&sz=371&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=oCA3YCvLIjGfuM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=111&ei=MLzfTaGfMMGo8QPA492GCg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmeasles%2Bencephalitis%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4SUNC_enGB369GB369%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D589%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=130&vpy=50&dur=8453&hovh=275&hovw=183&tx=89&ty=147&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&biw=1366&bih=589" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Picture here of a typical child with measles ? not even a bad case!
Am now going to hide this thread as I can?t bear to think of unimmunised kids with cancer/immune problems etc who can?t have the jabs catching measles from children whose parents have decided that herd immunity principles don?t apply to their children.

But I do think you're freeloading, it's just how it is. On the other hand you're right that we're all inherently selfish about our own children's wellbeing - I don't immunise for the community benefit, it's an added plus.

murphy, don't be ridiculous! We are all benefiting from other's actions! All of our children go to school, have free health care, can access sure start centres etc etc. It is called society...

Measles, but this isn't a third world country and although yes, measles CAN damage, for the majority in Britain it doesn't.

What are the stats for the number of unvacced PEOPLE in the UK - children and adults, who have had measles and who have, like me, emerged completely unaffected by it? Does anyone know?

Murphy, You've made a point with which I'm not even disagreeing, there's no need to convince me! As I said, yeah, sure, I'm a freeloader or whatever else you want to call it... but my children are my number one priority so I just have to live with the names you call me and my kind. :)

You didn't answer my question (indeed you may not want to, which is your right of course) - which child would you save from that burning building... yours or mine?

having had a family tragedy in the 1970s due to measles, I think not immunising your child (unless completely extenuating circs) is a bit like running a red light - there are certain basic rules that while following may not be 'altruistic' ARE part of a basic social contract we have with each other. By deliberately not immunising you are endangering not only your own child but also others who may not be able to vaccinate for some of the reasons people mentioned. It is ignorant and selfish - and any argument about putting your child first is ridiculous - the burning building analogy should be - if you have a chance to save both children, wouldn't you do so? Or are people so completely wrapped up in themselves? We are so lucky in western developed countries to have access to vaccinations, this is such a spoilt first world problem...grrr

I did answer (indirectly) val. 'course I'd go for my kids first. Thing is I'd fireproof my house first to reduce their chances of being in that situation to begin with - and if it benefits other children in the house whose parents might be a bit misguided, all well and good.

manicbmc - how old are you? Measles was vaccinated against in the 60's!

maybe the non-immunisers would like to read about just one side-effect - which might be rare but how would you live with yourself if your child caused this to someone?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subacute_sclerosing_panencephalitis

Would you put your child in a car with no seatbelt?

I think Murphy is right. Except for very specific circumstances, which your doctor will alert you to, it is much safer to have your children vaccinated than not. As for the free rider argument, consider this article:
www.slate.com/id/2232977/

in3minds: you are being too simplistic.

how about having to live, day to day, with the effects of vaccine damage?

am I still supposed to line up dd2 for her jabs as well?

it is easy to post links to scare stories, on both sides of the argument.

but the fact remains, you can only make the decision for your family, at that point in time.

dh and I talk often aboutwhat we shoudl do wrt dd2 and jabs (and dd1, as well, of course). we talked about it the other night, actually.

and we still both feel that the best course of action, for her, at this point, is to not be jabbed.

maybe you shouldn't google for the worst case scenario as that is not a balanced view in any situation, that way madness lies! If you wanted to you could spend all day terrifying yourself with horrible ways your children could die but it wouldn't make you a better parent or your children any safer.
I am utterly unconvinced by the argument that we are putting immunocompromised people at risk by not vaccinating children, they are vulnerable to all kinds of illnesses, not just the big scary measles.

I am ancient. I may have missed some immunisations as I was born in Cyprus as my dad was in the RAF.

missinglalaland, actually doctors don't always alert you to the specific circumstances.

the nurse who did dd1's mmr refused to let me see the patient information insert until after I had signed the consent form, and she had jabbed dd1. that is not ehtical. and in no way was my consent, therefore, informed.

dd2's paed, after a discussion on her probable mitochondrial issues, told me to make the appt for her jabs.

when I queried this, and we discussed it further, he admitted it was probably not the best course of action - but I had to quote a lot of info, and prove that I knew what Iw as talking about before he woudl discuss it properly.

doctors, ime, often trot out the party line, and no more. and can become quite irritated if you question anythig at all.

reikizen - I'm not googling, a family member died of this in the 1970s. Of course there's no point considering all the way children might die, but we take myriad precautions for them every day - eg seatbelts. There is no 'argument' to be convinced or unconvinced by, you are most definitely putting others at risk by not immunising your children! If everyone other than those who absolutely can't (a tiny minority) immunised their children, fewer people would get measles, mumps or rubella...it is not an opinion to be argued with, it is fact based on scientific evidence!

silverfrog, I am really shocked That's horrible. I didn't appreciate how lucky we are to have the NHS GP that we do.

I'll second the party line argument, both professionally and personally. At work, if you question a decision with good reason they often say 'oh, yep ok let's do that' when the original suggestion was the exact opposite! Also, when questioned by the GP about not immunising my children they are quite happy to discuss it properly once they know I am not a nutter who once read something scary about MMR and made a random decision.
Btw, doctors can and do do wonderful things, but they are better at mending something once it is broken than on advising how not to break it in the first place ime. They have a one size fits all view which is not always appropriate or correct.

I'm always amazed by the non vaxxers medical knowledge!!! What well read clever expert medical geniuses!!! They know better that hundreds of people who have spent years researching at universites and labs world wide!

Do they also home educate as they know how to teach better than teachers, fix their own cars, service their boilers?????

... treat themselves with magic homeopathic sugar pills, herbs and healers???

... the "university" of google has a lot to answer for!!!!

of course, you could argue that by having the vaccine, and not catching the disease "wild" you will, at some pooint, be putting others at risk, as the immunity for the vaccine has been shown to wear off, whereas immunity acquired via ntural infection tends not to.

and since no one actually knows how long the immunity lasts (other than the mumps element, which ahs been shown to be hopelessly inadequate), then that is quite a gamble, isn't it?

there are lots of people walking around who think they are immune, when in fact they aren't (outbreaks of mumps at universities, anyone?)

I agree with in3minds. Not vaccinating our children (unless they are undergoing cancer treatment or the like) leaves them at risk of falling ill with these childhood diseases and passing them onto others who are not immunised. This group will include children who's parents have decided against it based on paranoia as well as children who cannot be immunised because their immune systems are so suppressed from aggressive medical treatment. I feel horribly sorry for both groups. After all, children have no choice in any of these decisions. But, it is frustrating that the majority of un- immunised children, who fall ill with these viruses, could have avoided this dangerous situation altogether.

missinglalaland: yep. and dd1 suffered at the hands of a (different nurse, different practice) nurse who ignored us when we said we didnt want her to have one fo the jabs she was there for that day - nurse went ahead and did it anyway. dh and I were

the nurse's words were "oh, if you read that, you'll only have a lot fo questions - it always happens. let's just get on and do it, shall we?" odd that I might have some questions, following reading a patient information leaflet, really, huh? didn't really promote confidence in the whole set-up, tbh.

I have to point out that apart from the discredited autism argument there are other reasons why parents choose not to vaccinate their kids. I know more than one person who had allergies to so much stuff when they were a child, that their doctor advised them on medical grounds to refuse all vaccinations, and to avoid injections as much as possible.

Silver mumps at Uni is because a lot of students only had the MR or only 1 dose of MMR. They weren't immune because they were never vaccinated because it wasn't routine and didn't catch it. Entirely different to not vaccinating deliberately in the first place, whatever the reason.

not anymore, frak.

mmr was introduced in ?1989 - 22 years ago. there is no reason why (since originally take up was good - although it had started declining before the 1998 paper) there should be widespread outbreaks of mumps other than immunity waning.

but yes, originally it was supposed ot be one dose, covered for a lifetime.

and then they found out that didn't work.

so they changed the doses. and found out that didn't work. so tinkered again. and again.

result being, there are lots of people walking around who think they are immune, as they had the jab that was supposed to protect for life, but didn't. or they had the 2 jabs that were supposed ot protect for life, but don't.

the mmr has been a fiasco form the start (setting aside the whole Wakefield stuff), and is the most messed-around with vaccine there is.

Too much to cover since my last post but this one made me laugh:

"Do they also home educate as they know how to teach better than teachers, YES, I HAVE HOME EDUCATED AND MAY WELL DO SO AGAIN IN THE FUTURE. I DID A BLOODY GOOD JOB OF IT

fix their own cars I HAVE NO CAR BUT, AS I SAID ABOVE, I'M EX-TECHNICAL SIDE OF MOTOR TRADE, SO YES I COULD DO SO GIVEN THE NECESSARY EQUIPMENT

service their boilers????? OK, FAIR ENOUGH, THAT'S COVERED BY THE INSURANCE!

... treat themselves with magic homeopathic sugar pills, herbs and healers??? NO. ARE YOU AWARE THAT NON VACCINATING DOES NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THE NONVAXERS ARE WORSHIPERS OF ALL THINGS TWAT-WANKERY-WOO?

Back to the serious side...

There are all manner of reasons for not immunising children or oneself. I don't think I've given mine as they aren't relevant. However, one of these is that I see no sense in putting into a healthy body a mixture which that body does not currently need, is unlikely to need (ie even if the person contracts the disease the chances of permanent damage are very small), indeed, may well NEVER need, which has in some people side affects which are not imo acceptable or reasonable and which we don't have a sodding clue about wrt long-term effects.

Therefore to claim that the burning building analogy is irrelevant is incorrect. This is not a case of fireproofing the building that all the children are in as there are risks to MY children and to me with that fireproofing which I'm not prepared to take for the sake of YOURS.

I don't buy into all this collective social responsibility crap and never will. Nor does the majority of the population IME and IMO. Too much of a realist. Or cynic? Take your pick.

Bottom line for me is that none-one on MN, over the time I've been a member, has ever convinced me to immunise myself or my children and I very, very much doubt that they ever will. However, I don't get stressed by it - remember, those of you who have vaxed children, it's me and MINE who are at a small risk of contracting illness, not you and yours - and I never will. Most of you want to immunise your children, fine, go ahead. As long as you aren't deliberately rude to me about my choices I'm very laid back about it all.