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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Measles Outbreak?

1003 replies

MoaningLisa · 27/05/2011 13:56

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 01/06/2011 07:57

Very sensible, well reasoned posts, CurlyGirly2, but I'm afraid that as soon the thread hoggers come back you will be banging your head against a brick wall. Lots of us have said the said similar and given up. I think that I will have to hide the thread-the only way to stop having my 'last word'.

bubbleymummy · 01/06/2011 08:32

Curly girly, it was the hpa who have highlighted clean water as the main contributor to the reduction of measles and the WHO who gave highlighted the benefits of adequate nutrition in reducing the risks of complications. It was figuresfron the hpa that showed that the biggest reduction in deaths from measles came after the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940s, long before the vaccine was introduced in 1968. The case figures run right up until 2008 so you can also see from them that the publication of the Lancet paper in 1998 (Wakefield) did not cause an increase in measles cases. More figures from the HPA website show that the UK has never had 95% vaccination cover for mmr so there is not, and there never has been, herd immunity to measles mumps and rubella in the UK from the vaccine.

Are you arguing against the WHO and the HPA?

Also, off the topic of measles, I am slightly concerned about you placing so much trust in the HPV vaccine. It only protects against some strains of hpv that can lead to cervical cancer, not all of them. Please please make sure your daughter gets regular smear tests and do not depend solely on the vaccine. If nothing else, it is a new vaccine and it hasn't been confirmed how long any protection will last for. In any case she is still vulnerable to other strains of hpv that could also lead to cervical cancer.

Gooseberrybushes · 01/06/2011 08:37

" but people have been saying that vaccinations weren't responsible for the reduction in these diseases, but that it was better sanitation and nutrition that were the main benefactors"

but .. you think vaccination caused the huge 20thC drop in measles - before vaccination was introduced? how do you work that out?

Gooseberrybushes · 01/06/2011 08:47

"but I'm afraid that as soon the thread hoggers come back you will be banging your head against a brick wall. Lots of us have said the said similar and given up. "

Exotic, do you expect people to just be told? We respond to every argument and every point post our links - and even now you don't respond. You just sigh and say "when will you learn?"

Well quite frankly I'm deeply unimpressed by the cogency of argument and level of knowledge the pro-vax brigade have brought to the thread. If you're wondering why you're "banging your head against a brick wall" why don't you look at the research yourself and find out.

bruffin · 01/06/2011 08:53

"Very sensible, well reasoned posts, CurlyGirly2, but I'm afraid that as soon the thread hoggers come back you will be banging your head against a brick wall. Lots of us have said the said similar and given up. I think that I will have to hide the thread-the only way to stop having my 'last word'."

Well said exotic. The same happens everytime. It's all a game to them.

coorong · 01/06/2011 09:00

A child is more like to die in a bath (yes, check the ONS) or in a road accident (and be more seriously injured) than from complications from a vaccine.

And as for the drug company conspiracy bollocks. What about all those big herbal medicine companies that make a fortune from homeopathy and peddling claptrap - they're worth billions too you know and are very much part and parcel of big pharma (check the share holdings).

CurlyGirly2 · 01/06/2011 09:04

The WHO declared smallpox eradicated in 1979 due to vaccination programs in the 19th & 20th centuries. Nasty pic of smallpox on wikipedia too - little Bangladeshi girl. Smallpox was the stuff of nightmares with an 80% fatality rate. The WHO accredits vaccination with eradicating it- everywhere, no matter what the sanitation was.

The WHO states clearly that the best protection against measles is vaccination, although obviously sanitation played it's part.

Would you have us return to beginning of the 20th century with the diseases and child mortality that went with it?

Gooseberrybushes · 01/06/2011 09:17

"nasty pics of smallpox" Hmm well that means MMR is safe doesn't it HmmHmm

for Pete's sake - just say it - "I don't know much about vaccination but I know what I like"

this is ridiculous

worldgonecrazy · 01/06/2011 09:18

curlygirly2 please, please, please do not bring your daughter up to think she will NEVER have to worry about cervical cancer because she has had an HPV vaccination. I really wish that particular vaccination was renamed for what it actually is, a GENITAL WARTS vaccination, that protects against one cause of increased cervical cancer risk. The vaccine does not protect completely against cervical cancer and your daughter should have regular smear tests as soon as she becomes sexually active.

There is so much ignorance around vaccines. My own fears are that many parents think their children are protected against all forms of meningitis, and likewise, girls will think that they are fully protected against cervical cancer.

CurlyGirly2 · 01/06/2011 09:20

Re. Hpv vaccine, my daughter is only 3, so not relevant for me just yet! She will have the vaccination and smear tests as appropriate to the medical advice at the time. I put my faith in the WHO and the health agencies in the UK and I do not subscribe to any of the anti-vax / anti-pharmaceuticals conspiracy theories.

The WHO and the HPA give clear advice to parents that vaccination is the best protection against childhood diseases- so why use data from these agencies in the anti-vax argument?

Gooseberrybushes · 01/06/2011 09:20

"A child is more like to die in a bath (yes, check the ONS) or in a road accident (and be more seriously injured) than from complications from a vaccine. "

You have no idea if this is true. No one does.

silverfrog · 01/06/2011 09:28

tbh, I don't know how anyone can say that curlygirly's posts are well-reasoned when she has come out with easily disprovable "facts" about hpv Hmm Hmm

and yes, bruffin - it is all a game to me. my whole life is a game. my dd1's life, and illness, is a game Hmm - honestly, here do yuo get off, spouting shit like that?

exotic - not surprising to see you back again. you claim to be leaving and hiding the thread everytime that it seems likely you will have to actually answer a question put to you, or respond to a point made, only to pop up again when another poster comes on who supports your view.

as gooseberry has been asking for a whiel now - why don't any of you actually respond to her points? answer her questions? have you read any of the links? do you have any thoughts on them?

she is here, willing to answer your reasoned discussion (I owuld be too, but can't get my head aroudn most technical info atm - RL issues).

search posts by Beachcomber - knock the cogent, well-reasoned points down, if you can - that is the essence of debate

rather than just "oh, measles is awful - I don't know how anyone coudl bear to see their poor child suffer "

I see my child suffer everyday.

I live with the effects of vaccination.

I changed her nappy this morning, and will continie to do so for a long while yet, as continence is a long way off still - she is nearly 7. I fight for her rigths (including medical treatment, as am often dismissed as "not knowing" whether she is ill, in pain etc, as she cannot coherently answer a doctor's questions), and I tear myself apart living a life I never chose - as a result of vaccination.

Do NOT presume to lecture me on the effects of vaccination vs illness. It is asubject that clearly most of you knw very little about.

CurlyGirly2 · 01/06/2011 09:31

I believe and trust the UK health agencies that Mmr is 'safe' statistically speaking yes- are you saying I am stupid to put my trust in them? Well I have already said I do not subscribe to any of the conspiracy theories surrounding the Mmr or the Andrew Wakefield debacle. So why would I not believe in the Mmr? I believe there is a risk to Mmr as there is to any vaccination or any medical intervention, but the medical advice at the moment is that the risk of the Mmr vaccination is less than the risk of the diseases it protects against.

I will follow that advice and protect my children by vaccinating. I would advise other parents to do the same, unless they have serious medical concerns which contra- indicate vaccination.

Gooseberrybushes · 01/06/2011 09:33

"Well said exotic. The same happens everytime. It's all a game to them."

Oh my goodness I missed this. Bruffin how dare you. Your hypocrisy has been exposed - and now you've had to resort to insults too because you have literally nothing to say in reponse to points made and research linked to.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Disgraceful.

Gooseberrybushes · 01/06/2011 09:36

No Curly - it's only the pro-vaxxers who throw around words like "stupid".

You put your faith in who you like but don't go spouting that an opposing view is nonsense - or words to that effect - because quite frankly you don't know enough about it.

People can make their own choices. I don't abuse and ridicule people who vaccinate and I don't think pro-vaxxers should abuse and ridicule those who don't. Unfortunately too many seem incapable of civility and decency.

CurlyGirly2 · 01/06/2011 09:41

Silverfrog your situation is horrifying, and I know that vaccination damage is a very real thing.

Had I taken the penicillin erroneously prescribed to me by a careless doctor I could have died - leaving my husband and children bereft, and I imagine they would have had to fight for medical compensation too- that is life. But I wouldn't expect them to campaign against penicillin per se, just because I had a devastating adverse reaction to it. Penicillin is used for the greater good- but it has also cost lives. However, the good far outweighs the bad.

bubbleymummy · 01/06/2011 09:44

"unless they have serious medical concerns which contra- indicate vaccination."

Curly, how do you think children end up vaccine damaged? They are vaccinated. Silverfrog's daughter was vaccine damaged because she was taken along to a routine vaccination. No one knows whether or not their child will have a bad reaction, no one knows what all the contraindications are and it certainly isn't easy to find out when anytime someone questions the safety of a vaccine they get run out of town!

Gooseberrybushes · 01/06/2011 09:45

my lip is curling here

ugh

CurlyGirly2 · 01/06/2011 10:04

But that's the thing isn't it- nasty by true. The risk is very real, and is a horrifying reality to some parents like silverfrog. But, it is still a small risk - the whole premise of vaccination is that the risk of an adverse reaction is far lower than the risk of the disease itself- historically child mortality stats do support this.

Why would the WHO support the vax programs if the risk wasn't outweighed by the benefit?

CurlyGirly2 · 01/06/2011 10:12

Let's just say that I wouldn't refuse any medical intervention because of the risk of an unusual adverse reaction - people die regularly from an allergic reaction to anaesthetics, but I wouldn't refuse say, heart surgery because of the risk of the anaesthetic.

Therefore I wouldn't refuse vaccinations because of a small risk of adverse reaction.

silverfrog · 01/06/2011 10:16

curlygirly: I do not campaign against vaccination. search my posts. aside form threads such as these - where the nitty gritty is gone into - I defy you to find a post where I have said that no-one shoudl vaccinate.

I often say that vaccination is safe for the majority, and that, aside form some indicators which are presently thought, in some areas of the scientific community, to indicate susceptibility to complications, it should be fine.

I advise people to read as much as they can, on both sides of the argument, and come to a conclusion which suits them and their family.

becuase i cannot, in all conscience, say "it will be fine. everythign will be o". becaus ei know that is not always the case.

I do not, however, ever say "nobody should do it, and you are a fool of you do" the same courtesy is not often extended to me, I notice. I am regularly called, delusional, selfish, arrogant, mental, a nutjob - you name it.

I do not need pity, or even sympathy. my dd1 is happy, and we are currently ahead in most fights, and she is therefore settled and learning well at school. yes, many things are not as I woudl have predicted, but then, that's life, isn't it?

but I do not like being denied, or, more to the point, my dd being denied on threads such as these.

I do not like her being dismissed as "one of those things" - she is a person, who had a hwole life ahead of her - a life which should now be full of playdates (urgh! hate that word Grin), exciting school times, adventure and freedom. instead, it is a daily battle, she has many problems, and will probably never live independently. she is a delight, nonetheless, but it is hard.

I do not accpet that this kind of collateral dmage is acceptable - and I am afraid that everyone who says simply "oh, just vaccinate, it is safe" is showong that they do.

why are the studies not bieng done? the proper, comprehensive studies? (wel, they are, but not mainstream thanks to the press, and look at the uphill struggle!). why is there no proper research being carried out by the government, into any of the issue raised? why the cover-up and smear campaign?

why do people not know event he simplest of facts about these vaccines? (and often they don't)?

so please, do not lump me in with anti-vaxxers. if I was an anti-vaxxer, my dd1 would not be permanently disabled.

and whilst I do understand what you are saying re: penicillin, the situations are not really comparable. because i am not advocating that every child shoudl be force fed penicillin for little reason (in some cases and opinions), and the follow up checks not administered,or worse - if adverse symptoms are noted - ignored and dismissed.

what if your ds had reacted, and the doctor, instead of acknowledging this, and reacting accordingly had said "oh no. it can't be a reaction to the drugs. it just can't be. probably somethign else entirely. yes yes, it's ok. don't worry. but it's not the drugs" and advocating watching and waiting while your ds got iller and iller? because that would eb a comparable situaiton - you try reporting a reaction to a jab. no one is interested (although you can yellow card it yourself - but most don't tell you that either Hmm). they wait a while, and then say "hmm, yes. see what you mean. but it couldn't possibly be the jab (whichever jab)" - without actually investigating.

worldgonecrazy · 01/06/2011 10:25

silverfrog your story is heartbreaking, not just because of the damage done to your daughter, more so by the way she and you have been treated afterwards.

I can't remember where I read it but the truth of the matter is that vaccine damage does occur but to try and hide this the parents and children who are left damaged are treated shoddily. As a society we need to be able to have a sensible discussion about vaccination but I fear that will never happen. If we acknowledged that there are risks openly and without fear, allowing all parents the time and knowledge necessary to make informed decisions, perhaps we would be brave enough as a society to help support those who do have adverse reactions instead of trying to deny their very real suffering.

I am neither pro nor anti-vax. I am pro-informed choice. Becoming informed requires a level of commitment from both parents and the medical profession which I have found lacking.

silverfrog · 01/06/2011 10:33

worldgonecrazy - your last line sums it up - thank you.

why won't a doctor answer questions about a jab? why isn't the full information on vaccine efficacy rates available? even the numbers often quoted wrt to mmr uptake are wrong, as they don't take into account the people who get single jabs.

there is no easy answer to this whole debate.

but I do know that is isn't "oh, just go ahead - everythign will be fine" - because sometimes it isn't. and htere are indications that maybe it will be possible to identify groups of people who should exercise caution - but this is ignored and dismissed.

all very well if you aren't in one of those groups.

but what if oyu are? because society is not very good at picking up the pieces...

CurlyGirly2 · 01/06/2011 10:45

Silverfrog, I don't think the medical community do deny your daughter's condition - it is why medical compensation exists- although I am sure that is cold comfort to you.

You say you don't want pity, but I will offer my sympathy to you anyway as I cannot imagine many things worse than to have to watch your child suffer.

Had my son had an adverse reaction to penicillin, or indeed any vaccination, I'm sure I would have felt and behaved like any other mother whose child had had an adverse reaction to an tried & tested drug used routinely on the nhs. It's not an easy thing to imagine- but I would do everything in my power to make his life as wonderful as possible, as you are your dd, but I'm not sure it would make me doubt the safety of penicillin. Nothing in life is 100% guaranteed safe - you can only play by the best odds.

That's what I am trying to say.

silverfrog · 01/06/2011 10:57

curlygirly, that is all I do too.

I play the odds.

and the odds say that, for my dd2, vaccination is not safe.

and for that, I am called a nutjob.

it is not ok that people say "shit happens" in relatin to vaccination. not when reseearch could be carried out to identify who this shit might happen to. not when people try to point out what might be risk factors (and usually even then only go so far as to say "research furhter - you need ot talk to someone about this in depth") and are ridiculed, and the info they give denied or dismissed (often with little knowledge)

as for the medical denialism. yeah, right. try it - go on. try to report an adverse vaccine reaction.

have a read around - I am not the only one on MN with experience of this.

see how far you get, without someone saying "of course, it cannot be a reaction to the jab".

how many times does it have ot happen - there are threads on here where a poster is concerned post-jab, and hteir fears are dismissed. and their doctors won't take it seriously etc.

read up on it a little - you don't need ot search far before you come across someone who has been ignored when they try to report a reaction.

a friend of mine had the swine flu jab lat year. he collapsed, and was blue-lighted ot hospital. in a bad way for a while, thankfully ok now.

no one at the hospital even tried ot note down what had happened, and report it. he had to yellow card it himself.

no on e can question the holy cow that is vaccines - no one even tries. and that is a very scary position to be in, if you ask me.

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