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AIBU?

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Original poster

Measles Outbreak?

1003 replies

MoaningLisa · 27/05/2011 13:56

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

OP posts:
tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 19:08

Well the point is that people take risks every single day. Since the risk of dying from a car accident is so much higher than the risk of dying from a measles outbreak, would you refuse to travel in cars then? No?

MurphyWasAnOptimist · 29/05/2011 19:09

Not everyone who catches measles will die. And that's the risk the parents of unvaccinated children are taking

Yes, that's why they're stupid. [bangs head on desk]

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 19:11

Yes, that's why they're stupid. [bangs head on desk]

You can bang your head all you wish, but what a boring place the world would be if everyone thought the same?

MurphyWasAnOptimist · 29/05/2011 19:12

Since the risk of dying from a car accident is so much higher than the risk of dying from a measles outbreak, would you refuse to travel in cars then? No?

Nope, but I'd sure as heck make sure my kids were strapped in to a car seat. People who don't vaccinate are saying 'Oh, we don't believe that car seats work. What if we drive into a lake and have to get out in a hurry? No, no, no. We'll take our chances in a car crash, we don't want to risk not being able to get them out quickly if the car is going underwater. Not everyone who gets into a car crash and isn't strapped into a car seat dies you know!'

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 19:13

Vaccination is a civic duty. If you as a parent are not willing to contribute your community in this way then you should not be able to use the fruits of that community - schools, social services etc.

Yes, and in the interests of "community", we should also kill one person to save a thousand (or 10, even?). Its an utilitarian argument.

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 19:16

Nope, but I'd sure as heck make sure my kids were strapped in to a car seat.
Well, the statistics analysed by economis Steven Levitt (you can view his TEDtalk here : www.ted.com/talks/steven_levitt_on_child_carseats.html) show that car seats do not prevent death more than a regular adult seat belt would after the age of two. Shocking? Well then if you wanted to eliminate the risk of your child dying from an automobile accident (after age two), which by the way is still much higher than dying from measles, just don't travel by car??

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 19:17

Link to TEDtalk didn't work. Here it is : www.ted.com/talks/steven_levitt_on_child_carseats.html

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 19:18

"Yes. Not everyone who catches measles will die. And that's the risk the parents of unvaccinated children are taking."

No, they're risking the lives of their neighbours. The members of their community who can't have the vaccination or who are at greatest risk of the disease. That's what herd immunity means - its about minimising the vectors for transmission of infectious disease, in order to try to minimise the risk for those at greatest risk.

The parents of a healthy child who refuse to vaccinate aren't risking their precious child - not really from a statistical point of view - they're risking the immuno-comprised child down the road who.

That's why they are selfish and that's why they are stupid and that's why they should be castigated.

ggirl · 29/05/2011 19:20

ds had the mmr late at age 2
he was very very ill with it for weeks and weeks
measles like rash then various other ailments
so il we decided against the booster in the hope that he is immune
GP actually said she agreed with our decision
I hope that was the right decision

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 19:20

That's why they are selfish.

Well that's a perfectly valid sentiment for someone who thinks that their own life (or their children's) is worth less than the others in the community.

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 19:21

"www.ted.com/talks/steven_levitt_on_child_carseats.html"

Well it says it is on the internet so it must be true...

onagar · 29/05/2011 19:21

There's a lot of talk about how if everyone was good and got vaccinated then those who could not be vaccinated for whatever reason would be safe. The claim seems to be that they would not be exposed to the disease because so few would be unprotected.

Now that sounds almost reasonable, but recently I saw that the MMR even on the second treatment is only going to be 99% effective. Surely if you count the 1 in every 100 who is vaccinated but not protected along with all of those who can't be vaccinated for reasons (too young, too sick, too pregnant etc) you have a significant number. Is that not sufficient to ensure that everyone still will be exposed to the disease?

If that is the case then the whole argument for pushing people to have it goes out the window?

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 19:23

Windward, its not "just on the internet". Steven Levitt is a very well-respected economist and is very good at what he does - statistic analysis. I agree its a shocking revelation that carseats don't do much in terms of death prevention in automobile accidents after age two, but like it or not, that's what the stats say. I thought you were one for stats and expert analysis of stats??

lljkk · 29/05/2011 19:26

I don't think this thread is about people like you, Ggirl. You tried vaccination and you know it's risky for your child. But knowing that, knowing vaccination is no longer an option for your child, don't you want herd immunity to protect your child, in which case everyone who reasonably can vaccinate should vaccinate?

I have read SuperFreakonomics... Levitt etc. considered the case of booster+belt vs. fancy-dancy seat+belt, they didn't conclude that no booster was fine, rather that fancy-smanchy seats weren't proven to be better than a basic booster.

I often wonder what the extended RF-fanatics make of his stats...

ggirl · 29/05/2011 19:28

Yes I do agree with the mmr , and am glad others get immunised.GP actually talked about herd immunity hopefully protecting ds .

exoticfruits · 29/05/2011 19:33

I would like bubbleymummy to come back, after commenting on her figures I would like a comment on the Hib vaccine as promised.
Or a comment from anyone on the Hib vaccine-from my question ages ago.
Or a comment on my measles figures. (from those who think sanitation etc was more important than vaccine)

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 19:33

"The claim seems to be that they would not be exposed to the disease because so few would be unprotected."

Strawman. No one is saying that. In the case of the MMR the aim is to minimise not eradicate.

How a virus moves through a population is an incredibly interesting subject and models exist for most (if not all) of the things we vaccinate against in the UK.

I don't have the figures to hand but above a certain percentage of the population with immunity effectively blocks the vectors for infection why which an infection can propagate. The numbers vary according to the infection, the population, the culture etc. The MMR program aims to bring the level of immunity in the population to the point where an infection cannot spread. The models are out there explaining this.

It is for exactly the reasons you say that we don't vaccinate against some and yet do for others. Look at the models for Hep B for example...

silverfrog · 29/05/2011 19:36

so who is the htread talking about then?

with all the talk of the Wakefield case series ebing discredited (it hasn't) and deluded fools whose children are at no risk from mmr?

the talk of idiotic parents not understanding risks, not undestanding how dangerous the illnesses are?

what exactly do you suggest for parents like me, then?

with one vaccine damaged child already? who keeps getting reminders to get dd2 jabbed, but when I talk to anyone who will actually give an opinion, not toe the party line, the agreement is there that it is not wise to do so?

agreement based on our family history, coupled with Wakefield's research, plus the other studies which have replicated ti (it is not the only paper to have said what it said)

the deliberately inflammatory comments form a few on this thread do no one any favours.

exactly what woudl you have me do? it is not safe to give dd2 the jabs - the risk, for her, far outweighs the risk of complications shoudl she contract the disease. the odds are not on her side on this one, where vaccination is concerned.

PigletJohn · 29/05/2011 19:41

"with all the talk of the Wakefield case series ebing discredited (it hasn't)"

Really?

silverfrog · 29/05/2011 19:44

yes, PIgletJohn. Really.

PigletJohn · 29/05/2011 19:45

Hahahahahahahaha

theneverendingcleaner · 29/05/2011 19:50

The number unvacinated could be reduced considerably if GPs would give a single measles jab.
If having measles was that risky then they would, the fact they do not speaks volumes.

silverfrog · 29/05/2011 19:55

PigletJohn, how do you explain the case series being described as "good science, which still stands"? by a witness for the prosecution?

how do you explain it having said of ti "I wish the clock could be turned back, and the conclusion accepted, and examined for what it was, in the way ti was presented"?

how do you explain the fact that the work has been replicated around the world?

PaisleyLeaf · 29/05/2011 19:55

There would perhaps be more unvaccinated up to the age of at least 6 though, assuming you have the first jab at age 1 and leave twelve months between them. It could take that long to have the 6 jabs.

Riveninside · 29/05/2011 19:56

Once again, my dd cannot be vaccinated. But i do not expect other parents to vaccinate for her benefit. They should make their own mind up. I dislike people bleating about herd immunity to save those who cannot be vaccinated. Dont use my child in your justification. Thankfully parents are still allowed to decide what pharma products to put in their child. Long may that continue.

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