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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Measles Outbreak?

1003 replies

MoaningLisa · 27/05/2011 13:56

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

OP posts:
TheHumanCatapult · 29/05/2011 09:19

dunlurking

Yes the schoos in Us will make exception if theres a immune reason why cna not be vacinated .Looked into it when had a chance of job/house over there.Did not go as they would not give visa due to ds sn

Dunlurking · 29/05/2011 11:16

Thanks TheHumanCatapult, wondered about that. Sorry you didn't get your chance to go.

Talking about Hib - On a trip to Sri Lanka a few years ago to visit in-laws our hotel room boy told us how his first son had died of meningitis - the Hib one, and that the vaccine wasn't available except in an expensive private clinic. We paid for his next child to have it (got the receipt and everything to make sure he did get it), and each time we stay now he talks so proudly to us of his daughter. We are sooooo lucky to have a comprehensive and free immunisation program in this country.

exoticfruits · 29/05/2011 11:26

I think that we are very lucky too-people don't realise, have no idea what these diseases were like and then say they would have died out anyway due to other causes! I keep looking- so that someone can tell me what is so different from 1992- other than the vaccine.

lljkk · 29/05/2011 11:57

DH (26yo, too old to be vaxed, very fit & healthy otherwise) had pneumonia from HIb in 2001. Hardly stopped coughing for most of 10 weeks. 4 weeks off work. Narrowly missed being hospitalised. Took 3 different types of antibiotics to clear it (strain resistant to some antiBs, and DH is penicillin sensitive so can't use the best antiBs available). Had an X-Ray afterwards to check if his lungs were permanently scarred (luckily not) . Nasty nasty disease.

bubbleymummy · 29/05/2011 12:28

Exotic, no one is saying vaccines haven't played a part, just that they aren't the only thing, or the most effective thing. Quite often they have been brought in when the disease has already been declining for years and then all the credit is awarded to the vaccine eg measles. Have you looked at the HPA figures yet? Did you see the huge drop in cases from the turn of the century? Did you notice the difference that antibiotics made in the 1940s? Do you see how the difference that the vaccine made when it was introduced in 1968 was tiny in comparison?

Re. Smallpox and isolation - I believe it was Leicester that implemented it during a major outbreak - might be worth a google and a read if you are interested.

exoticfruits · 29/05/2011 12:37

But-bubblemummy-can you tell me what has made a difference with Hib other than the vaccine?

bubbleymummy · 29/05/2011 12:58

Exotic, why don't you have a look at those HPA figures and respond to my questions and I'll think about answering yours because you've been doing your best to avoid them while accusing others of avoiding yours.

exoticfruits · 29/05/2011 13:48

If you send me the link again I will. I have googled it and found them saying that measles cases are soaring.

Dr Mary Ramsay, an immunisation expert at the HPA, said:
"Over the last few years we have seen an unprecedented increase in measles cases and we are still receiving reports of cases across the country.

"1,049 is the highest number of measles cases recorded in England and Wales since the current method of monitoring the disease was introduced in 1995.
"This rise is due to relatively low MMR vaccine uptake over the past decade and there are now a large number of children who are not fully vaccinated with MMR. This means that measles is spreading easily among unvaccinated children."

"There is now a real risk of a large measles epidemic. These children are susceptible to not only measles but to mumps and rubella as well."

I quote from HPA website.She doesn't seem to be blaming anything other than the lack of vaccination. I can't see 1940s or 1968 numbers, but will comment if I have them.

exoticfruits · 29/05/2011 13:49

Now found it-will look and get back to you.

Riveninside · 29/05/2011 14:01

Dd cant be vaccinated. She actually has had rubella, its a very mild disease. But i do not expect other parents to vaccinate to protect my child.
Oh, and at her brain injury group there are kids brain damaged by vaccines going theough the compensation process. A pathetoc £120,000 for a lifetime of care.

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 14:15

www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/02/06/a-few-things-i-know/

Suzanne Humphries, MD
February 5, 2011

Suzanne Humphries, MD

I am a Medical Doctor with credentials in internal medicine and nephrology (kidneys). I received a bachelor?s degree in theoretical physics in 1987 from Rutgers University. I mention the college degree in case any doubtful readers question my mental prowess. One can doubt my intellectual ability less if they first realize that I know how to figure out difficult things. I know how to look at something in depth for many hours or days until I understand the inner workings of it. This is what I learned to do in college. In fact the strenuous mind-bending exercise that was part of the physics curriculum made medical school easy. I found the study of the human body, chemistry and biology to be in comparison quite shallow, simple and easy to comprehend.

I also spent two years working in a biochemistry lab as the head technician. There I learned many things that at the time I didn?t think would ever serve any purpose in my life. But in fact, as our destinies are often predetermined, the lab experience did indeed come around to serve me. In the recent days of vaccine debates, need for scientific proof, evidence of harm, I have found that knowledge of the technical aspects of animal studies and cell cultures are very good things to understand.

I have spent four years teaching internal medicine and nephrology to medical students, residents and advanced fellows in training at a university hospital as an assistant professor. During that time, reading over and critiquing dozens of journal articles was a part of everyday life. Suffice it to say, my past experiences have put me in good standing to look into the problems with vaccines and make certain determinations. Like most doctors, I held a blind belief for many years, that vaccines were necessary, safe and effective. Like most doctors, I never lifted a page to seek out any other truth for myself. But unlike most doctors, I have no stake in upholding false paradigms and I am no longer indebted to the government for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Unlike most doctors, I have the means to survive with or without my medical license because I have sought out another education to support myself in case of worst case scenario. I do not feel fearful to speak the plain truth as it sits on the pages in front of me. Thousands of pages and hundreds of hours have led me to see the horrifying truth of what is being done to people and animals all over the world under the false pretense of ?health?.

I am of sound mind, on no pharmaceutical drugs, carry no medical diagnosis and am unusually fit for my 47 years. I am happy, and have no grudge against any particular party. Up until 2 years ago I was content to work as a medical doctor caring for very sick people with kidney failure. Two years ago, everything changed. With several undeniable cases of kidney-associated vaccine injury in previously healthy people, I started to look deeper into the information that I had previously held as factual and not worthy of debate. I started to study vaccines, their components, and the science behind the statements of safety and effectiveness. From there an avalanche of truth collapsed upon me and I will never be the same. In fact, nothing I look at will ever be the same. Chronic degenerative diseases, kidney failure, autoimmune diseases and powers of authority will never look the same to me again. There are certain things that I can now say with no uncertainty.

Vaccines did not save humanity and never will.

Vaccines have never been proven truly safe except for perhaps the parameters of immediate death or some specific adverse events within up to 4 weeks.

Smallpox was not eradicated by vaccines as many doctors readily say it was. They say this out of conditioning rather than out of understanding the history or science.

Polio virus was not responsible for the paralysis in the first part of the 20th century. Polio vaccine research, development, testing and distribution has committed atrocities upon primates and humanity. Bill Gates is not a humanitarian.

Vaccines are dangerous and should never be injected into anyone for any reason. They are not the answer to infectious diseases. There are many more sustainable and benevolent solutions than vaccines.

Medical authorities should not have the final word on how doctors treat individual patients in the privacy of their own offices and should not be able to dictate injections into our private hospital patients.

The list goes on, but with this introduction I challenge health care practitioners to look into the topic of vaccines with an open mind, on their own. I implore them to read books and alternative literature sources. I ask that they understand that the peer review process has censored intelligent doubt on vaccine safety and driven it into the alternative press. I beg that all health care practitioners place their egos beside them and be ready for what will happen when the truth is visible. You may not want to go back to work. You may not be able to follow the recommendations that are being ever more heavy handedly given to you. I ask this for the good of humanity. With each passing moment more and more money and power is being handed to the powers that be and the end result is a barrage of vaccines starting at the first hours of every life that is born in a conventional manner. The injections pile up and the new illnesses appear shortly thereafter more and more every year. The degree of illness in such an advanced society should not be accepted as normal or just environmental. Please, parents and health care practitioners do your homework. The minds and bodies of future generations depend upon it.

exoticfruits · 29/05/2011 14:33

I have trawled through various sites and come to the conclusion that whoever said 'lies, damn lies and statistics' was quite right! There are graphs and then people explaining why they are misleading.
There are people heavily on one side and then people like Suzanne Humphries.
I know that whatever they say I am not going to risk my DCs health.
(I had whooping cough mildly, (vaccinated) I gave it to my baby brother before he had the vaccination-he had it very badly-so much so it made a huge impression on me, although young at the time)
I couldn't find measles numbers for pre 1940 but taking 1940 up to present day there are huge fluctuations between years so I decided to take a decade.
1940s 3426,686
1950s 4298,323
1960s 3700,369 (vaccine 1968)
1970s 1424,444 (more than halved)
1980s 786,283 (nearly halved again as more DC have vaccination)
1990s 82,424

Now on the up.

Gastonladybird · 29/05/2011 15:03

Exotic at risk of being thick can you clarify what your first and second numbers are

pooka · 29/05/2011 15:27

I read the numbers as being the total number of cases in a decade, I.e. For the full 10 years.

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 15:34

if "Suzanne Humphries, MD" had a shred of evidence to support anything she said then she would publish it for review.

But she hasn't so she doesn't.

exoticfruits · 29/05/2011 15:37

Correct pooka
i.e in 1990s there were eighty two thousand four hundred and twenty four notified cases of measles.

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 16:02

*if "Suzanne Humphries, MD" had a shred of evidence to support anything she said then she would publish it for review.

But she hasn't so she doesn't.*

Yes, but didn't she also mention "I challenge health care practitioners to look into the topic of vaccines with an open mind, on their own. I implore them to read books and alternative literature sources. I ask that they understand that the peer review process has censored intelligent doubt on vaccine safety and driven it into the alternative press."

If that is indeed the case, then can we really just decide that because there hasn't been a published review, then there can't be truth in what she said?

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 16:10

Problem with peer reviews : insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2010/08/15/problems-with-peers/

The public has a perception that peer reviewed medical journals are held in the highest regard in terms of scientific accuracy. So often we hear the question, ?Did the study come from a reputable peer reviewed journal?? on the assumption that something reviewed and authorized as ?true and correct? by the peers of the writer, must have a bigger, better stamp of authority.

Medical History through the ages, has much to teach us about how the view of peers can be utterly wrong, to the cost of both mothers and children. Oliver Wendell Holmes is only one example. To those who study medical literature, problems with peer review is nothing new.

Much to Inside Vaccine?s amusement, the sanctity of peer review received another truth-review, when the Scientist www.the-scientist.com/article?7601 published an article expressing more of their concerns about the ways in which peer review processes, work against ?science? being the primary focus of science publications.

While considered by the public, to be gold standard medical practice, scientists openly discuss the peer review process as a broken system, plagued with the medical equivalent of nepotistic turf protection.

While the Scientist?s article is interesting, other scientists spell out the problems in more precise detail: www.ipscell.com/?s=i-hate-your-paper-dr-no-and-the-editors-that-are-ruining-peer-review showing that obstruction can come in the form of editors who turn a blind eye to unreasonable reviews from competitors, or friends of competitors. Reviewers themselves can make suggestions which are either ludicrous, make no sense, or show that they don?t understand the topic (and therefore consider the study worthless). Then there are the reviewers who suggest the researcher obtains better laboratory materials from them, and promptly refuses to supply on request, or doesn?t reply when asked. The list of ways in which peer review can be undermined, is legion, and very entertaining. Particularly the one about the reviewers who approve papers no matter the errors, because they know the person they just reviewed will probably review their work the next time around.

It would be really funny, ? if it wasn?t so serious, and detrimental to science as a whole. It?s also time that the general public realized that ?science? isn?t necessarily what they assume it to be, and that what is portrayed as credible is sometimes imagined, rather than being a principle in fact.

That peer review infuriates many researchers, isn?t new. This septic piece of ?truth spoken in jest?, has been on the internet for over a decade now: web.mit.edu/ariely/www/MIT/Sample.shtml. You can only wonder just how often the author experienced the wrath of his peers.

If we are talking about fatal flaws in evaluating science involving medical topics about which there is very little debate on fundamental dogma, but plenty of turf protection egged on by competition for limited research funding, what might the situation be, where a study might challenge a dogma, or present a major risk to a specific industry?

There may not be many old fogies around who recall the screams of dismay after studies showing that routine episiotomies were utterly unnecessary. The problem wasn?t the science. The problem was the realization that a guaranteed, easy, mindless income from every single mother in labor, was sliding out of justification, and reach. And there are still some today, who still trot out the mantra that a clean scalpel cut heals so much easier than a graze or a mended tear. Similar howls of discontent came when other studies found routine tonsillectomies were also unjustified.

Recently, Inside Vaccines discussed what happened when an Indian doctor questioned the need for the Hib vaccine, in an Indian medical journal. He stated that India had high natural immunity to Hib, and raised a concern that the WHO had concealed serious side effects from the new vaccine which was being suggested for India. Not long after, another Indian commentator, took a side-swipe at him in the British Medical Journal, and called him anti-vaccine. Is this the standard label to anyone who so much as starts a sentence with the word, ?But?.??

Consider for a moment, if you will, something ?out of this world?.

Take yourself to an imagined Mars where a really good scientific study on completely vaccinated children compared with never vaccinated children, showed significant differences between the two groups, ? such that the researchers suggested that the routine vaccination Mars schedule should be modified, maybe reduced, or even, ? heaven forbid - that to vaccinate should be a voluntary choice made only by Mars parents!

Imagine then, Earth?s CDC?s reception of a suggestion sent from Marslings, that perhaps Earthlings should look and see whether or not vaccines recommended on Earth, had previously unstudied ?issues?.

If there are already seemingly insurmountable hurdles when it comes to accepted medicine, what sort of explosion would arise if someone questioned fundamental vaccination assumptions? After all pharmaceutical companies collect a minimum of two thousand dollars pocket money from birth to age 18, for every American child, without that child even being sick. Each year, that ?wellness? cost grows substantially, as more and more vaccines are fitted into the needle cushion schedule.

In the current climate where research funding usually comes from the makers of the product either directly, or sideways from government organizations, who in their right mind, would risk their medical careers for such a study? Who would fund it? ?. Yet isn?t such a study scientifically logical? Wouldn?t you think it would be prudent?

Given that medical journals also have sources of funding they need to keep happily lubricated, would any of them consider publishing findings which might suggest that vaccines had previously unstudied down sides? If so, just WHO would they pick for peer reviewers? Those who need to be lubricated? Who might they be? The study authors? competitors?

Even more interesting, if the unthinkable happened, and such an article was finally printed in a journal, how long would it be before the unfortunate authors were pilloried, tarred, feathered, hung, drawn and quartered, and sent to Mars?

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 16:11

Ahh, the old "review process is corrupt" chestnut.

Probably explains how Wakefield got published in the first place.

"If that is indeed the case, then can we really just decide that because there hasn't been a published review, then there can't be truth in what she said?"

So why doesn't she publish?

Unless it's bollocks?

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 16:12

And just to be clear here - peer review isn't perfect but its a hell of a lot better some than unreferenced, inaccurate, misrepresented bull shit from a website which is all I see here.

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 16:24

So why doesn't she publish? Unless it's bollocks?

Do you really think that the editors of most journals would be happy to publish her work given the pressures from big pharma? Conflicts of interest? etc.

And just to be clear here - peer review isn't perfect

No it certainly isn't. It isn't even great either. I wouldn't even say it is "a hell of a lot better" than the what the naysayers to vaccination claim. Peer reviews are done by people, and people are capable of errors, being motivated by greed, self-interest, etc. Which I'm sure even the medical community isn't "immune" from. (pardon the pun!)

highlystrung · 29/05/2011 16:32

I don't think YABU! Winds me right up when people don't get their healthy children vaccinated. Completely selfish to depend on everyone else getting theirs done so they benefit from herd immunity which is supposed to protect the vulnerable who can't have it done. And because these parents won't do it herd immunity fails and children who can't have it done get very ill.

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 16:37

"Do you really think that the editors of most journals would be happy to publish her work given the pressures from big pharma? Conflicts of interest? etc. "

So this is what it boils down to: conspiracy.

This has been done to death - I can't be bothered to participate in yet another thread with people so stupid they are willing to believe unreferenced rubbish from a random web site against over two hundred years of published science.

Lets sum this up - vaccination as a science is well understood. As already mentioned there is a body of work, of research and development supporting vaccination going back over two hundred years. We can give examples such as smallpox where there has been direct, observable, quantifiable evidence that vaccination dramatically reduces the transmission vectors in populations. It is at least as well understood as most other biological disciplines.

Vaccination works. The science says so, the numbers say so, society says so.

All the the "anti vaccination" crowd have to offer is a single piece of discredited research and the usual "conspiracy" bullshit that the stupid and the desperate always turn to. It really is no better than those idiots who try to convince themselves that the moon landings were fake or that the earth was created in six days and has just as much credibility.

You are wrong and more than a bit stupid.

tigercametotea · 29/05/2011 16:43

Jeez Windward. No need to resort to personal insults in order to win an argument which incidentally, you have not won. I'm not even going to continue this discussion with you if your idea of doing so involves dishing out offensives left right and centre. Says a lot more about your character than mine honestly.

LookToWindward · 29/05/2011 17:02

There's no argument. There's the science and then there's the ramblings of some crank on a website. Your anti vaccination crap is like putting Genesis up against the geological record as an "argument" for six day creation.

Normally I couldn't give a toss. If you want to believe that moon was made in six days from green cheese then good for you.

The difference here is that the bull shit you're spouting is putting peoples lives at risk.

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