Does anybody actually know anyone who had an ELCS just because they thought they were "too posh to push"?

[InAStateOfReflux]

Just watching the Wright stuff. One of the hot topics is that apparently ELCS rates being performed by the NHS are rising because people are deciding they are "too posh to push" and it's costing the NHS lots of money.

They are suggesting that these women should be offered psychiatric counselling to bring them round to the idea of having a vaginal birth.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I was given an ELCS because my dd was breech and was in fact strongly advised to (not given much choice in fact) and anyone else I know who's had one has been offered it because of significant trauma or complications in a previous birth.

I have never however met a woman who insisted on one on the NHS just cause she didn't fancy pushing it out of her fanny, and I doubt the NHS would go with this anyway tbh...

And if they're talking about women who have real fears and emotional distress regarding child-birth, then yes of course lets force the hysterical wench to push it out, does she not know how much money she's costing the NHS?

Oh how I love the way the media portray these issues...[sigh] Yes perhaps ELCS rates are rising and perhaps this should be addressed in some way, but to suggest it is for such fickle reasons is so juvenile. Perhaps it is the HCPs fault and not the whole female population who are apparently too cowardly to push their babies out?

About the surgery during cs thing - when I had mine, I had been in hospital for a while so knew the doctor who performed it fairly well (she stayed on after her shift to section me). She told me that she was going to sew me up like she did her private patients to give me a flat stomach. I have no idea what she did, but she was absolutely right - within a week I had a completely flat stomach, having had a definitely rounded one before getting pregnant!

Sadly, it hurt like buggery for ages, and didn't last - am some years (and chocolate) on now and it's back to rounded.

So not exactly surgery, but maybe this is more routine in private hospitals.

I don't think it's very helpful saying that if you were in pain after a cs it must be because your doctor was rubbish. Surely how people recover from surgery is a very personal thing and depends on all sorts of factors - I expect you would find a large range of recovery times for people sectioned by the same surgeon.

I know someone who did this. She had an elective caesarian and a "tummy tuck" at the same time.

I'm sorry, was maighdlin asking for help? Why on earth did I have to be "helpful"?

This is my honest opinion: If her tummy muscles are "fucked", if she has a huge overhang, and if she was in pain for six weeks, than her CS was not done well, because none of that is normal.

Normal CS these days is one where they don't cut your tummy muscles so they are not fucked, where the incision is done under the pubic hairline so there is no overhang, and unless you manage to rip open your stitches or get an infection, pain lasts for days, not weeks.

Oh and would you say it was "helpful" of her to flat out say that those of us who requested an elCS needed our heads examined?

I would say that is pretty unhelpful to those of us who have suffered horrible traumas in previous vaginal births and had to fight tooth and nail to get An elCS so as never to have to do it again.

Cote, I have no doubt that my first CS was badly done. I have had three more since and was never in the same pain again. However, with my first CS, I was a public patient ( I'm in Ireland) and had no choice about which surgeon did the op. On the others I had a private consultant and there was a huge difference, which is why I have always paid since! Trouble with a CS is that you are at the mercy of these surgeons and it can be pot luck whether you get a good one or a bad one.

In regards to the "overhang", I did not get a single stretch mark from pregnancy, but the weight of my overhang gave me several angry red ones on my stomach and hips POST birth. I thought I was the only one, I didn't realise it was a common thing! Thankfully it seems to have all gone back structurally to where it is supposed to be, just a slight layer of blubber that need shifting...

P.S. Pretty much the whole area of skin around my scar is still numb 4. months later, is this normal?

I think maighdlin was talking about people who go private for a section just because they're 'too posh to push' or whatever. Previous birth trauma would come under a medical need imo.

Pumpkin - I couldn't sit down for 3 months, driving certainly relies on sitting down. And the nerve damage I sustained meant I couldn't carry my baby (not to mention a toddler) for 6 weeks as I wasn't stable enough to guarantee her safety. I know I am close to the extreme end of the VB spectrum (though not the worst I have heard of) but the publicity of "you can't drive for 6 weeks" for a CS and silence over bad VB outcomes angers me as my friends who had CS at the same time had far better recoveries than I did.

Well, CSs are more dangerous for both mother and baby. VBs are safer. Statistically.

The reason that women are being made to have CSs when they have breech babies is due to a loss of knowledge/capability/experience within midwives. They rarely see breech births now so they are less confident about being able to manage one, so they recommend a CS, then they SAY it has to be a CS. It's a vicous circle.

Same with a VB. The risk of CS scar rupture is very small - under 1% - with a VB, yet consultants seem to take this as a given (your scar will rupture!) and monitor throughout labour - which leads to more intervention. An intervention spiral. And another vicious circle.

Women need to have more faith in themeslves and in their bodies. Consultants can just suggest things. They can't not 'LET' you do something. YOU have control over your body and what happens to it. You want a VBAC - you can try to have one.

So the reason that ELCSs are rising is not that women are too posh to push but that midwives and consultants are too scared of being sued if anything goes wrong with a VB, a VBAC or too slow progression. All are pointers to an early CS.

So I don't have enough faith in myself? The fact that I have a pelvic deformity that means that instead of opening out during labour my pelvis effectively flaps closing over the birth canal is just down to me not having faith in my body? So how did it happen the first time round then? when I didn't know how about my pelvic problem and though I would just had an average vaginal birth. Oh I really am so thick if I had just had the right attitude my pelvis would work.

How slow is too slow progression? 2.5 days from 6-10cm then 14hrs at 10cm without baby going into birth canal never mind anywhere near coming out the other end? Maybe I was just a lazy fuck up though.

I remember when dd was about 4 days old supplies ran out and we had to go to Sainsbury's. We'd only made it about half way up the first aisle and I was in pain. DP said I should just wait in the car but I didn't trust him to remember my list, so I went and got a mobility scooter from customer services! Everyone I told about it later thought it was hilarious, but all jokes aside, I really couldn't walk that far. Looking back I now realise I did have a bit of PND. It was hard not being physically able to look after dd in the way I wanted to, dp had to get up to do all the transfers and pass her to me when she needed feeding 10 times a night. I couldn't really stand up and rock her to sleep. I felt helpless and way out of control. I'm sorry but I had a relatively routine CS in terms of recovery and complications, but by no means was it easy.

CoteDazur, How are they meant to get to your uterus without cutting through your abdominal muscles?

So there is loss of knowledge how to deliver breech vaginally, because it has been superseded by something as safe, or possibly safer.

Nostalgia certainly is not the right reason for retaining outdated procedures.

I have to say I agree with CocktailQueen. My consultant told me that there was a paper published in 2000 that suggested that CS was far safer for breech babies. However, since then, the paper has been widely criticised (e.g. taking stats for breech births from premature labours etc) but since then most breech babies have been delivered by CS so there are very few MWs and young Drs how have experience of breech VBs so because of this alone it is safer to have an ELCS, even though it is widely accepted that breech VBs are not as dangerous as they thought. I for one was not going to be a guinea pig and the first breech VB my midwife had ever seen...

I have not read all the thread but wanted to add my experience. I watched a film at school of childbirth when I was 11 or 12 and went green and had to leave the room ! I have always felt very negatively about childbirth since then and put off having children for years. When I did fall pregnant I was in tears when the midwife paid me my first visit I explained how terrified I was. She said I should be able to have a ECS but I would have to see a consultant. The consultant was very understanding and said it would have probably have turned into a CS anyhow as I was so tiny. I felt so relieved and it stopped me dreading the birth for the impending months. If they had offered me hypnosis i would have been happy to try that as I believe they are now doing that in some parts of the country.

InAStateofReflux - the muscles are pushed apart rather than cut through www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10422908

This incredible woman was definitely not too posh to push!

OMG, Penth! What a woman!

omfg! She performed a cs ON HERSELF!

posh bitch

HOLY HELL! I wish I were one millionth as tough. What a woman!

I squeezed both of mine out of the fanster but everyone I know who has had a CS has had a really serious reason for doing so.

For instance my best mate shoved twins out of her fanster and then had a single who was breech and terribly the wrong way round too. She was terrified of cerebal palsy and so asked for a CS.

I'm currently awaiting counselling since being told at 28 weeks that repeat c-section is no longer considered a medical reason (I had an elcs for twins). If I had known that I wouldn't have considered another pregnancy. Up until the point the consultant said that, every single medical professional I'd come into contact with had suggested that a repeat section would be the best way to go.

After that meeting I ran from the hospital and gave myself a black eye from repeatedly punching myself in the face to try to deal with the shock.

Every morning I wake up at around 4 and start crying. I try to pull myself together before my children wake up. I don't want to speak to any of my friends or family in case they ask me about the pregnancy or the birth. I'm trying really hard to hide my anxiety from my children but they are asking me why the hospital makes me sad and if I am not looking forward to their baby sister being born. I am totally unprepared for her arrival (in terms of equipment, etc. as well as mentally) because I now can't think about it without getting extremely agitated and upset.

This has been going on for a month. I've agreed to counselling and to attend a birth options clinic. After repeated calls I got squeezed into see the birth options consultant (a "factual) discussion), but I'm still awaiting any psychological support. The birth options clinic did not present a balanced view of the risks of VBAC versus ercs (for example, denying the figure from NICE that VBAC results ten times higher infant mortality - a figure which even my consultant confirmed). I'm now nearly 33 weeks and I'm not sure that there is time to resolve any issues that I have or to delve into my past history which I've successfully kept underground for most of my adult life in order to be able to function. I'm not sure that pregnancy is the right time to do that either.

When I go to the hospital some of the midwives are incredibly derogatory in their attitude towards me, including grilling me in the waiting room about my reasons for having my c-section with the twins. I'm concerned that even if I'm "successful" is getting a repeat c-section, I will be neglected in the post-natal ward as I am "too posh to push".

I don't know what to do.

I'm shocked at how you are being treated schmee, I'd complain if I were you. This is no way to treat a patient and councelling should not equal bullying someone into something they're not comfortable with at all.

Can't you see another consultant for a second opinion? You are clearly traumatised, which will make any attempt at VBAC more difficult than if you were totally gung-ho about it.