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AIBU?

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Original poster

Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

773 replies

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 12:07

AIBU to think it's time he went?

OP posts:
Flisspaps · 19/05/2011 16:26

oohlala Two under 16s having sex is not rape, as has been said many times through the thread:

^I know this has been said by kungfupanda and others time and time again, but just for clarity:

Over 13 and under 16 and it is consensual sex, the offence is "sexual activity with a child". If there is no consent, then it is rape. Under 13 - consent is off the legal table as in it doesn't matter whether a girl consents or not, it is still rape.

We do not have the term "statutory rape" in this country, although that is what the "Under 13" element is, in effect. And if two people in the 13-16 age bracket have consensual sex, the offence is "sexual activity with a child" and is rarely prosecuted.^

And as for signals being misinterpreted, it does not matter if you get into bed naked with someone, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT a green light for them to then insert a penis into you if you do not absolutely consent to it. If they do, then that is rape, regardless of what you were, or were not, wearing at the time. He may have misread the signal about you having no clothes on, he did not misunderstand you saying stop - he CHOSE to ignore it.

xstitch · 19/05/2011 16:26

Is it online do you have a link? Depends on the reason they are giving for him not being sacked on whether I will be very annoyed or not.

xstitch · 19/05/2011 16:29

Thanks for the link,

Peachy · 19/05/2011 16:29

Many, many eyars ago now my best mate and I were raped in the same year. Mine was a date rape, hers was a classic 'dark night / deserted canal path' rape.

I told myself it was nothing much for me for eyars and went under: now I also had a bereavement that eyar which exaccerbated the going under but it was a alrge part and I have a lot of self worth issues even now.

I felt though that compared to what she endured it was nothng. Still do a little I guess, but what stuck out was her pointing out that I had a huge breach of trust to deal with on top of everything; forced to elarn that even people i actively liked could behave terribly.

I now think that different rapes bring up diffferent issues but tehy are all terrible and horrid in their own right.

How many prosecutions happen for two older teens consenting I wonder? just, have worked in CP and not encountered ANY

Peachy · 19/05/2011 16:30

Flisspapas well said

xstitch · 19/05/2011 16:31

At least they are not saying that rape isn't serious.

TandB · 19/05/2011 16:35

xstitch - oddly, you might have done better if you had somehow been able to face your ex-h in the criminal court than the family court because the procedures and standards of proof are quite different.

If you had been giving evidence against your ex-h in the crown court and a witness had put something forward which was important and provably wrong, it would have been in the CPS's interests to adduce evidence to disprove it. Your ex-h would have had to serve something called a defence statement giving a broad outline of his defence and details of his witnesses so he couldn't ambush the CPS.

And he would have been up against someone whose entire purpose was to secure a conviction, not someone who probably wanted to settle the case in some way in order to avoid having to argue it in court.

The family court is, generally, a decent forum which tries its best - you experience is the worst I have heard of and I have always wondered how you were unfortunate enough to finish up with such a poor lawyer AND such a wishy-washy judge. However, when it comes to sheer clout and willingness to pursue a point like a dog with a bone, I would take a prosecutor in the crown court any time. The criminal court is still completely adversarial whereas the family court is not. There is also the fact that criminal lawyers spend most of their time in court - family solicitors certainly do not and I think that has an impact upon how robust they are in the court environment.

You were very badly served as I have said to you before and it is a great shame.

TandB · 19/05/2011 16:37

"Signals being misinterpreted" is just bollocks-speak for "she led him on".

The word "no" is a pretty clear signal and hard to misinterpret.

xstitch · 19/05/2011 16:40

It was all argued in court for days I was slagged off for just over a day in the witness box. I am still traumatised by it tbh. Even by the little things like MY Xh and his family being fauned over and me treated what felt like a criminal made it feel worse. Don't mean to be petty just about all adding to the overall perception. Like I had lost before it even started.

MrsBethel · 19/05/2011 16:49

What about this scenario:

Man and woman in bed fooling around;
man starts to initiate sex;
woman says "no";
they carry on fooling around;
man starts to initiate sex again;
woman says nothing, but goes along with it this time.

KatieScarlett2833 · 19/05/2011 16:51

Cunt, tosser, utter prick.

I hate him.

xstitch · 19/05/2011 16:51

Well if she didn't say no or stop at that point then technically I would say not rape. Though the guy I would think was on shaky ground and should have perhaps asked if she wanted to or not.

DuelingFanjo · 19/05/2011 16:53

"woman says nothing, but goes along with it this time"

goes along with it?

you have set the scenario, what's the woman thinking?

mathanxiety · 19/05/2011 16:56

It is assumed you do not want your house broken into and your property stolen, yet rape requires a clear 'no' statement and the issue of whether that statement has been made and how clear it is comes up again and again. It seems to me therefore that it is assumed that women want sex with random men under all sorts of conditions and in a lot of different circumstances.

Flisspaps · 19/05/2011 16:58

He shouldn't have initiated sex the second time - 'going along with it' when you have already said no once but have effectively been ignored (by him attempting a second time) is not necessarily the same as willingly participating.

Flisspaps · 19/05/2011 16:58

I suppose what I'm saying is that not saying no is not the same as saying yes.

vesela · 19/05/2011 16:58

I don't want anyone to have sex with me without my consent, whether I know them very well, a little bit or they're a stranger, whatever the degree of additional violence, or whatever else we might be doing. I would be grateful if Ken Clarke could arrange it so that the law and its enforcement gives me adequate protection in that respect, when I'm in the UK. If he's unable to take that task seriously, then he has to go.

hairylights · 19/05/2011 17:03

Why do people always cite the underage scenario in the debate about rape sentencing? And why do people also cite the (very rare) more complex (and often hypothetical) cases.

ccpccp · 19/05/2011 17:08

"At least they are not saying that rape isn't serious." - xstich

Nor is Ken Clarke.

The explosion of screeching from yesterday is dying down now that people are actually looking at what he said, rather than how he said it.

vesela · 19/05/2011 17:12

hairylights, in the case of men I think it reflects their fears - that their wife/girlfriend is going to be pounced on by a stranger, or that they themselves are going to "fall prey" to a "treacherous, manipulative woman". That's why they seem intent on reducing all rape to those two categories.

MrsBethel · 19/05/2011 17:12

I'm thinking there's just such a wide variety of crimes under the banner of 'rape' that it is pointless to generalise.

It's about as useful as simply talking about 'crime'. They're all different.

It's almost impossible to say some rapes are 'worse' than others without belittling someone's experience.
Probably best to avoid such unnecessarily emotive language and stick to specifics: can the degree of malice vary; can the trauma of the victim vary; should the custodial sentence vary?

hairylights · 19/05/2011 17:16

Gosh bethel no there isn't a wide variety!!

Rape is the act of putting an object or body part into the vagina or anus of a person who doesn't want it there afaik. It is very clear. That in itself is a violent crime.

Sometimes additional crimes are committed at the same time: stalking, battery, theatre to kill. They carry additional sentencing.

hairylights · 19/05/2011 17:17

Threat not theatre.

ChristinedePizan · 19/05/2011 17:19

I've been raped twice - once by a virtual stranger at a party where I was so under the influence of various things that I put up no resistance. I was awake, it was quick, it was over fast. I went back to the party and carried on. I felt (feel) very ashamed of myself that I allowed it to happen but I'm not terribly traumatised by it.

The first time I was raped was on a second date with a man who I hadn't had sex with and I woke up to find him raping me in the middle of the night. I screamed at him to get off and he stopped. But I found that a hugely traumatic experience - I was scared to go to bed, scared to be alone with a man anywhere, couldn't deal with public transport (people touching me), couldn't cope with a relationship for several years.

So don't anyone dare tell me what kind rape should be traumatic and what shouldn't.