Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

[NotFromConcentrate]

AIBU to think it's time he went?

Don't hold back donnie

well as a tory cabinet member I he is not exactly left of centre is he? or maybe you just mean is is not as right wing as Osborne. Or Fox.

Excellent post SardineQueen

This is what I don't understand - he so clearly judges rapes based on rape myths. This makes him not only an unfit Justice Minister but an unfit judge in his prior career.

YANBU

No, I mean that he has always been known as a left leaning politician throughout his career.

There's a new sticky thread in Site Stuff asking for any London-based Tory MNers who'd like to talk about KC on tonight's 10 o'clock ITN...

I'm not a Tory and miles away otherwise I'd like to explain what the problem is. Also dd at XH's tonight would suspect he wouldn't return her if I spoke that publicly.

Indeed Nancy66

I shudder to think who his replacement might be.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/1218279-URGENT-Would-you-like-to-be-on-ITV-News-At-Ten-talking-about-Ken-Clarke Did anyone see this thread, MNHQ looking for someone to talk about this on the news tonight?

I did elephants see my post above.

rape is about power. all rape is a truly horrific crime against a woman (and man to man too). i am guessing that some acts of rape also have additional charges possible, like murder. so i imagine that in the legal system there are additional measures/sentences.

date rape is still rape. it is an abuse a a crime of violence.

i speak as one date raped once. it wasn't 'violent' but it has made a big impact on me. he shouldnt be prosecuted but he ought to understand that what he did was wrong. guessing some therapy might have helped him, and me?

I really fail to see how anyone can say date rape is 'not violent'. The insertion of a penis into the vagina of a woman who doesn't want it is in itself a violent act.

Also presumably the unwilling woman has to be restrained/held down? That is also violence.

"All rape is wrong, but a man like Delroy Grant who carried out 500 sex attacks on elderly people is a lot fucking worse than an ex-boyfriend who goes too far one night, (after you invited him into your bed) "

What an absolutely twisted argument. Yes he's bad, he has affected five hunded lives.

but the trauma experiened by the one woman raped by her boyfriend (and frankly, whether invited to bed or not is nothing to do with whether a person then goes on to rape another person when they say 'no') - is not less tramatic than the trauma experienced by each of the other 500 women.

Two strikes and rapists should be locked up forever. In fact, no, Rape should carry a life sentence - and that should mean life.

I don't think that he should be made to go. Ed Milliband is such a little twerp for jumping on a remark and taking it out of context. Did KC actually say that rape was unimportant.. As far as I can tell he was "guilty" of saying that not all rape is equal. If he was talking in terms of sentencing then of course he is correct. All rape is a crime and a serious one, but the same sentence should not be given to a man who lurks in parks with the sole intent of rape and grabs a woman versus to a man who rapes a woman in a drunken, dating situation, where he has misunderstood the signals. Still very wrong, but not the same thing when it comes to handing out prison terms.

YABU. He is not saying that date rape is not a serious crime, but, a violent and armed gang rape could be worse. Currently two teenagers under 16 having consenting sex can be rape.

There is only one level of rape at the moment, and I dont see a problem between a distinction between various types of rape. Sorry, I know nobody is going to agree with me on this, but I thought he was rightish.

As a silly teenager I did get naked in a bed with another teenager, but did not want to have unprotective sex with him (being young and foolish we did not have any condoms). He went and had sex with me, and although I told him to stop, I was not very forceful, and ended up going along with it....

I did not go to the police, but if I had not gone along with it, I think this could have been rape, but it would not have deserved the same sentence as man in alleyway with knife in my very humble opinion. I think naked in bed together, may have been misinterpreted.

oohlaalaa sadly it was rape. You told him to stop and he didn't.

xstitch
Do you think that rape should attract the same custodial sentence as a 'night stalker' type rape?

Do you think the victim's are equally traumatised?

"but the same sentence should not be given to a man who lurks in parks with the sole intent of rape and grabs a woman versus to a man who rapes a woman in a drunken, dating situation, where he has misunderstood the signals. Still very wrong, but not the same thing when it comes to handing out prison terms."

Can you explain why you hold that opinion? Have you experienced both? Can you honestly assess it to be different degrees of trauma and therefore conclude that one is "worse" than another?

And how is it possible to mistake the clear verbal signal "no, I don't want this/I don't want to carry on/stop" for "yes" even if drunk. IMHO you'd have to be so very drunk that you were unable to maintain an erection.

Yes I do think the victims are equally traumatised.

Because I knew my rapist I have to face him every week. I have to face his family and friends knowing them to be his family and friends. That continues the trauma. Knowing him didn't make the physical pain any less when he was attacking me. Didn't make me fear murder any less. In fact mad it worse along with the fear of re-offending because he had keys to my house, refused to return them and legally prevented me from changing the locks. A stranger could not have stopped me changing the locks.

xstitch is making a crucially important point here - and a brilliant argument for why the "stranger rape is worse" line is so completely absurd. (I've already posted re. my own, probably controversial explanation of this.)

Another thing I find so absolutely outrageous about this stupid distinction is that it inevitably leads to the trivialization of the experiences of victims who were not subjected to what KC calls "the most serious rapes". If I had a penny for every time I've heard people (and shockingly this is often women) say something along the lines of "I'm sure he just misunderstood - let's not get all upset, dear" I'd be a very rich woman indeed.

I thought he was saying that underage sex, where a girl consents to sex has different sentencing guidelines to someone who grabs a woman off the street and abuses her. Which is right. I am no Tory by a long shot, but I think that useless twerp Ed Milliband is trying to deflect from his lack of policies by jumping on a remark and he makes me want to kick him!

It would also be a shame for the first Justice Minister in a long time who is actually trying to shake the prison service into considering rehabilitation of offenders (ie teaching them some skills before release so they have a chance of getting a job that pays more than robbing or thieving) rather than locking them up then letting them out to be booted out. I think he's more aware of both the issue and how things can be interpreted now, so it would be a shame to throw out baby and bathwater, so to speak.

Sorry, I didn't know about your experience (should have read more of the thread). I was referring to oohlaalaa's post. I certainly wouldn't want to belittle your trauma.

That's what he meant kate at least that's what he is now saying he meant. The problem is that is not what he actually says. Read further up the thread and some of us including me have tried to explain it. We have been discussing around the wider issue hence the length of the thread but tbh I am fed up repeating myself. I may have the energy to explain myself again later.

The Guardian have an editorial piece today arguing that he shouldn't be sacked