To be slightly upset & insulted with DP's request for a cohabiting & pre-nuptial agreement?

[jammydoger]

I'm not too sure how I feel about this so just wanted to get an external view point to this.

DP and I have been together for 4 years now, cohabiting for 18 months. I'm currently 23+4 pregnant with our first, also house hunting which has pushed us to sort out our finances, will's and the rest.

So yesterday he requested that we should direct our solicitor to draft up both a cohabiting agreement and pre-nup while were at it (were planing to get married next year). The main concern at this stage is the house purchase whilst I'll be putting up 50k he's contributing 100k to the deposit.

Now I don't have an issue with a pre-nup per se but it raises certain questions on how he views our relationship. Obviously he wants to protect himself which is fair enough but its got my back up a little that he sees me as a threat to his wealth.

The idea of entering a marriage with a contract that deals with what happens in the event of the marriage failing seems to question our commitment to each other. Or AIBVU?

My posting wasn't directed at you (sorry!!) - it was to another posting ...

All I am saying is that IIRC a prenup doesn't cover the dependents in a marriage (that is a separate issue ) it just is a declaration of what should happen should your marriage end.

too many 'even's. not stylistically good.

jammydodger are you entitled to a portion of the profit on the flat if you contribute to the morgage now?
If he is being so fussy about his capital you need to be too.

Oh. I echo getting indpendent legal advice, for yourself. Also, both draw up wills.

If its just about the differing financial contributions to the house purchase, then a pre-nup isn't really necessary. You will both be able to prove from bank records who provided what. Alternatively, you could both sign an affadavit to that effect and store it at your solicitors. So the pre-nup seems to be more about protecting him should you split up.

The trouble is, once you go down that way of thinking, where do you draw the line? Are you going to ask him to compensate you for giving up a year's earnings and potential harm to your career for having his child for him? What about if you found a man who contributed the same amount as you financially to the house purchase, wouldn't this make better economic sense, as you would be entitled to a clear 50% of any profits? Is he older than you? If so, then again on this ground, it would be economically more viable for you to get a younger man on more of an equal financial footing to yourself. Do you see how ridiculous it is? Family law in the UK as it is adequately governs such situations and all that most pre-nups do is lead to vast amounts being spent on legal fees, only for them to be not followed by the courts. In fact, Scots law now recognises the concept of "economic disadvantage" following a relationship break-up, which may include such matters as loss of earnings and pension accumulation in the event of a relationship break-up.

Without being too mercenary, traditionally one of the whole points about being in a relationship with someone and getting married is to pool joint resources. If you are being excluded from this benefit, you wouldn't be unfair to ask just what is in this for you, taking the long term view?

he does know that pre-nups are not binding in the UK? Fair enough you can enter into an agreement if you were never intending to get married to cover things such as the house etc, but even then there is still equity rules to protect you, e.g if you did not get married and both paid money into the house etc if the house is just in his name he can't kick you out and take it all. In divorces i have seen there have been similar set ups like your selves A puts down X deposit B puts down Y deposit, both will get the deposit they put in. Courts will look at everything fairly regardless of any agreement. Any solicitor he would go to would warn him that a pre nup is not worth the paper its written on.

"his opinion is I have less stake on the house (when we buy one) because a) I'll be on leave for the best part of a year so not contributing"

That is a rather worrying attitude, OP. I also agree with the poster who said the right time to bring all this up was before you started a family, not once you'd got pregnant. But to (try to) be fair to him, some of this may be caused by pressure from his birth family.

Anyway, unless there is going to be fairness and: (i) a recognition that while he may wish to protect his wealth, he should also want to protect his child; and (ii) you quite reasonably want to protect yourself (given you are making yourself vulnerable by compromising your earning capacity to raise your child) then I question whether you should proceed as currently agreed. It's not just for you to protect the child's interests-that is something you should BOTH want.

You're helping to pay his mortgage at present. Is that to be recognised by him with any sort of equity share? If not, why not?

It's not the request for a pre-nup or cohabitaion agreement per se that is a bad sign (there is a lot of sense in them for both parties, provided they are entered into with honesty and spirit of mutual generosity), but how-from what little you've told us-your partner appears to see things.

I tend to think you're better off telling him to fund the new house and keeping your £50k entirely separate, to avoid a situation where what you have put in, in pecuniary and non-pecuniary terms, is not adequately valued by him.

If you intend to stay with this twat man, then could you both put in the same deposit and just increase the mortgage or buy a cheaper house (so you put £50k in each).
I would not be happy to be in an unequal relationship of this kind.

EggyAllen having said that the laws are unfavourable towards women. What should i do instead? Sign an agreement knowing full well that if things didn't work out I'd be in a weaker position, unable to care for our child/ren? This is exactly what my father did to my mother. And as a result in my teens my mother struggled to support my siblings and I.

I wonder what your DP will think when you've sought your own independant legal advice?

I think this is a really good opportunity to discuss how your family finances will be managed when you are on mat leave and then married. Best to be clear now as may otherwise cause lots of problems further down the line.

Is he generally old fashioned/ sexist towards you? Not valuing the contributions you will make in raising his child seems very worrying.

chelstonmum- I'm entitled to nothing as far as I'm aware. Its his flat why would I be? He purchased it before we got together.

explicit financial agreements are v sensible.do go get solicitor advice for yourself

and discussing all this now is good time esp as pg.plan for your future, what provision for baby.all the posters harrumphing that hes wanker etc for daring to bring up money,they are over reacting. not enough people discuss money and individual expectations.

this head in sand,love is all is frankly whimsy.just because you're living together and having baby doesn't mean you shouldn't discuss finances and make plans

he can make plans by all means.and so should you

missmyoldname - That would be an option were we not living in London. Property prices are ridiculously high!

AKissIsNotAContract- I hasten to add he is wonderful in most ways. And we love each other. I just think that he hasn't looked at this from my point of view tbh. But I am worried about his valuing my being at home with our daughter.

hardly anyone will get married with assets that are equal in every way.The whole point of marriage,surely,is that you are from then on in parnership,you are a unit with all assets shared,along with everything else. I would not have married DH if he had wanted a pre-nup,why is he getting married at all if he feels the need to have one? Many women will be disadvantaged by marriage financially if they are at home with small children, the field is never equal,you can't make it equal,you just need to want to share what you have,and accept that circumstances can change.DH has some income from a family trust, now we are married he considers it our families money,not his,and that is how he refers to it.
I think you need to ask your man why he feels so precious and unwilling to give what he has to your new family unit.Suggests to me he won't be very generous or giving in any other areas either.

well, EggyAllenPoe, the OP can make sure that doesn't happen if she gets proper legal advice. This is her best chance.

But he hasn't purchased the flat. He's got a loan (mortgage) on it which you are contributing to.

If the DP is turns out to be an unreasonable arse during the writing of the pre-nup, he's hardly going to be more reasonable in the event of a divorce is he?

I think a cohabitation agreement/pre-nup is in general a good idea, especially if there is a substantial family inheritance on one side. They aren't legally binding but the recent case involving the German heiress shows the courts are happy to give effect to them if both parties have received independent legal advice some time in advance of a wedding. An eve of wedding "sign this or I call it off" threat induced pre-nup would not be viewed so favourably.

As others have said, you will (I hope) take out life insurance/write a will specifying guardians even though you have no intention of dying before your child is an adult. This is just the same principle.

Tell him that you will be seeking independent legal advice and see what he says/does. If he suggests in any way at all that you don't want to do so/ought just to obey trust him, or that he knows what the law is, then you need to reconsider your future with him, because anyone who objects to you obtaining independent advice before signing a document is someone who is trying to rip you off.

Also re ownership of the property, if he wants tenants in common you must make sure you make mutual wills leaving your shares to each other, otherwise you (or he) could find yourselves in the ghastly position of having to sue your own child who would otherwise inherit their share in the awful event one of you died before the wedding.

I have a better idea than whining to your DP about trust and commitment:

Say "Yes darling, if you wish", then get yourself a lawyer. Ask him to draft a prenuptial agreement to protect your interests. Include a clause about a rising scale of payout in the event of divorce depending on the number of years you spend married. Definitely write down that he is to pay for the education of any kids you will have, including the bump who will presumably be born before your marriage.

Let the lawyer deal with all this. Lay back and enjoy the rest of your pregnancy, knowing that there is no nasty prolonged divorce in your future, if things go sour

marriage is a gamble - i think divorce usually goes worse for the woman, and no pre-nup changes that.

A vague agreement between the two of you might have no legal standing - as already mentioned an agreement drafted by a soliciotr might not either.
A private discussion about it would give you an idea about whether his expectations were fair on you. If, for example, he expected you and his children to move out, and take back only £50k + (carefully calculated by financial payment) equity stake in the event of a break up - what would you make of that?

What is troubling about this is the fact he 1) is looking to cover his ass when it is you, as a pregnant woman with her job prospects compromised that is financially and otherwise vulnerable 2) does not consider raising his kid to be a contribution.

eggy is spot-on

Op what country are you in? Cos a pre-nup in the UK means nothing.

Pre-nup would be meaningless if marriage lasts for years - he's just protecting his interests if you ended it quickly. He's probably a bit insecure - don't think that makes him a wanker.