to not care about immigration?

[StuckinTheMiddlewithYou]

So many people seem to have a huge problem with it and I really don't understand why.

The crazy thing is, I live in a hugely multicultural area and most of the people I know who have a problem with this, live in predominantly white suburbs.

We have a problem here with alcoholic homeless people fighting and screaming in the streets - none of them are immigrants.

Oh yes and lets all blame the children for schools not adequatly teaching other languages.

Why should there be any duty to circulate wealth, provided you contribute to the exchequer through taxation. I want to buy a holiday house in Umbria - why should I spend my money in Cumbria with its crap weather and worse food?

I am not denying the importance of charity and community but they're bankrolled by the working population and I'm sick of the debate on immigration being seized by the workshy and by politicans too devious to concentrate on this country's real problems.

Firstly define "Immigration".

Are you talking about those Europeans who come here legally, work hard and then go home again, or those Europeans who have been kicked out of their own countries and France,and Italy because they believe their "Roma" culture entitles them to have knife fights, sell their 13 and 14 year old daughters to the highest bidder and make benefit claims in every country they pass through (and yes I have evidence this is not rumour or hearsay).They are here legally too. Or the economic migrants who have entered as visitors or students and have stayed to work illegally? Or the asylum seekers who have fled their countries of origin, travelled via France, Holland, Germany and/or Holland all of which are safe countries but who choose to come here because we do not remove anyone? Or are you talking about 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims who are British born and bred but who are radicalised, this process generally starts off with a disenchantment with the things we are all pissed off about- lack of work, unaffordable or substandard housing, lack of benefits for some whilst others defraud the system etc. This is hugely simplistic but trying to get the bare bones of my argument down to start with.

YABU because you need to think about all aspects of immigration and how they affect you as an individual and as a member of society.

CCP said Perhaps you should pay a proper wage thomasbodley.

Perhaps you should try running a business before you talk bollocks.

I'm with the OP, I have no personal experience of any problems with immigration (and I've lived in several very different parts of the UK). I do think most people who get worked up about it live in very white areas.

BGF, I am not sure I understand your point, sorry. Children in this country are the beneficiaries/vicitms of what has gone before. I am not sure they will pass this down. Am I still missing the point?

My/our contribution: One of us works odd hours for the NHS, pays taxes part time, popped out two potential little tax payers. The other adult on team Mefferson is an academic, indirectly has/had influence on Government policy, educates, pays taxes etc. We do also take our pound of flesh though. We had our two children on the NHS, our children go to state schools and we still use what is left of the NHS so I am not sure if what we contribute versus what we take isn't about even stevens.

Reading that back, that will be fuel to some peoples fires: two public sector workers, reading the Guardian and watching Channel Four News. We tick all the boxes and we love it. I'm off now. Happy debating.

We need the circulation of wealth for businesses and services to survive. That is why so much is spent on advertising. If they don't survive then that means more unemployment, that is how our society works. Everyone pays tax wether you are on benefits or not.

It shows how comfortable we are in this country that people believe they have a moral right to all the benefits of living in the UK such as free healthcare, education, housing and support, simply because they have been born here, but other people have no moral right to such things, even if they are prepared to work for them, because they were born in another part of the world.

I wonder how many people, if they were born somewhere that no matter how hard they were prepared to work, could not provide their families with healthcare and education, would just say "Oh well, that is our lot in life, we have no right to go somewhere else where we can have a better life"? There must be an awful lot of stoic people in the UK. I know I could not be so accepting of my 'lot'.

I do run a business.

You want to explot cheap immigrant labour then go for it. But recognise it for what it is and the effect its having on the working classes.

"It shows how comfortable we are in this country that people believe they have a moral right to all the benefits of living in the UK such as free healthcare, education, housing and support, simply because they have been born here, but other people have no moral right to such things, even if they are prepared to work for them, because they were born in another part of the world."
People have the right to these things because their parents, grandparents, etc etc worked and fought for them to have them. They didn't just happen at random.

"I wonder how many people, if they were born somewhere that no matter how hard they were prepared to work, could not provide their families with healthcare and education, would just say "Oh well, that is our lot in life, we have no right to go somewhere else where we can have a better life"? There must be an awful lot of stoic people in the UK. I know I could not be so accepting of my 'lot'."

There is no reason any country in the world could not have the same things that we have. But that will not happen if people choose to move elsewhere instead of working to improve their own country.

Birds Do migrants and immigrants and foreign workers not buy goods and services, then?

There is plenty of money circulation in the economy - but domestic policy is geared towards the wrong expenditure and political debate concentrates on the wrong subjects.

Our company makes stuff and sells services and employs people. We want to do it in a way that is economically viable. Instead we have a massive taxation burden to service people with no work ethic. Weeps

Anyway OP perhaps those that live in 'the white suburbs' know how things are being affected on a national scale and they have a problem because of this. Personally i don't think that immigration is making things better (in a less exploitation, highering living standards way) globally. It is just pitting one worker against the other.

Wow, reading this thread you would have thought there is no global recession, only immigrants.

Pay cuts, suicide rates....all due to immigrants.

Birdsgottafly, her in Scotland we do need immigration. Scotland, you know that whole part of the UK that's north of most of the rest of it?

CCP You want to explot cheap immigrant labour then go for it. But recognise it for what it is and the effect its having on the working classes.

We don't "exploit cheap immigrant labour". We pay the economic rate for the appropriate skill. If your skills are no longer appropriate for this economy, learn a new trade.

So, we have this situation where the media runs stories on the problems which immigration causes.

I live with immigration and do not see these problems.

What would you believe?

Thomas not if they come here and work and then take their money back with them. As i said there are different ways to make a contribution to society. You obviously see people as worker drones.

The benefit system doesnt cost as much as it is reported to, in terms of those that choose not to work. There is so much wasteage in public life that wherever cuts are made, there is money wasted elsewhere.

"We don't "exploit cheap immigrant labour". We pay the economic rate for the appropriate skill. If your skills are no longer appropriate for this economy, learn a new trade."
The economic rate for a lot of jobs is lower now than it was 15 years ago. There is no reason for this other than increased competition for jobs due to mass immigration. It has been good for business but bad for people.

Gosh, RobF, some people on here should go abroad and live somewhere else for a while - there are a lot of great places to live.

True, immigration cannot go on for ever, here there need to be some rules, but this isn't the only country with such problems.

We Westerners expect every luxery, fly and drive everywhere, do what we like (and use 70% of the world's resources), whereas Africa gets drier and poorer - and then you blame them if they want a bit of the cake?

Our local hospital is full of foreign doctors and a friend's surgery advertised for a GP - no one applied!

Thomas whilst learning a new trade people carn't always work. I live in an area of high unemployment and also multi-skilled/qualified people. You seem to want to just buy in instantly what you need regardless of the human cost of such policies. Society is also run for the benefit of those in it not just business needs.

Actually, I think exportation of jobs (from ship building to call centres) has had the biggest impact on rates of pay. But it's easier to resent immigrants.

Thomas not if they come here and work and then take their money back with them.

Repeating myself here but...they buy food and goods and services. If they want to buy assets elsewhere, they can do. Nothing stopping you from doing the same.

Except of course, when immigrants and migrants do buy UK assets (houses, companies etc) people like to complain about immigrants buying up UK assets.

It's all bollocks.

RobF - what do you do to make sure that other countries have the same things that we do? Or do you believe that you have no moral responsibility to do anything because of where you were born?

If you believe you have a moral right to a comfortable life because of what your grandparents did, do you also believe that people whose grandparents were not themselves so fortunate have no moral right to a good life now?

What did your grandparents actually do? Or do you just mean that because they were lucky to have the good fortune to have the benifits of life here, you should too?

"We pay the economic rate for the appropriate skill"

Like I said. Exploiting cheap immigrant labour.

Skills has fuck all to do with it.

gabid-don't make assumptions about other posters. I have lived elsewhere, my family don't live in the UK. My father never got British citizenship despite working here and paying a high rate of tax without ever being entitled to benefits.

The lowering of standards in this country will do nothing to increase living standards in Africa, just the opposite.