to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

[countless]

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

Yes, have read every post on here. Have agreed with some of what a lot of people on here are saying. Have disagreed with some too.

Unfortunately, people are seeing what they want to see in a lot of posts, and jumping on the wrong points that are being misinterpreted. It's understandable to some degree, because with such an emotive and harrowing subject, it's easy to see red. But there have been some mistakes on this thread.

And yes, FWIW, and before anyone asks, I am a victim too.

Chibi, my rape was much like your case, and I'm sorry if I did cause any offence. It's just a subject that I do get very uptight about.

There are a lot of situations where nothing CAN be done. But there are times that I think "that could have been avoided if such information was available." I felt the same thing about my abuse and rape. Two days after I left him, I was given a booklet which described the personality of an abuser. Had I noticed any of those signs in the first six months, I wouldn't have stayed with him. It was just after we'd been together six months he held a knife to my throat. I lost count of how many times he raped me. There's a possibility my DS was conceived by rape. I know how it stays with you.

When I was given that booklet, I sat there and cried. They never tell you what to look out for. And you always think "it won't be me"

*2 or 3 people have asked what the reasons are for rapists choosing their victims, if not alluring clothing.

This is easily available information if you can be bothered to google.*

Do you realise how daft that reads?

Prince Humperdnick, whereas I agree that women should be free from rape, surely the empowerment of information is more acheivable?

Women are raped in burkhas, nuns are raped, women in jeans are raped, women in skirts and dresses are raped, girls in school uniform are raped, elderly women are raped -

we all want to believe that if we wear the 'right' clothes we won't be raped by a man, or if we 'take sensible precautions' we won't get raped by a man. But the thing is, the only deciding factor about whether or not you'll be raped by a man, is if you're in the company of a man who is a rapist. And how are you supposed to know?

I pity the girl who had a male friend walk her home (because it's not safe for a girl to walk home at night alone!) who raped her on the way. See? You can't win, coming or going.

No one wants to believe this. Everyone wants to think that women can 'stop being raped'. Well, they can't. The clue is in the grammar - they're not the ones DOING the rape, they are the ones being raped.

The only way for rape to stop, is for men to stop raping.

If we're interested in how men can stop raping, we can ask questions about how we as a society might counter rape myths, how we might educate boys and girls to understand what enthusiastic consent means, and how to seek it, and damnit, we might work towards a society where being female doesn't mean that you're there for the sexual and/or violent use of men.

But none of this work that women and feminists do will stop men raping.
Rape will only stop when men stop raping.
Men can stop rape.

Thank you 4madboys and countless I often worry that I come across as a bit militant and don't put my point across well, because I am so incensed

Something further to add to my Latitude tale. It isn't only women that these assumptions affect (although obviously that should be the main concern). The night those posters went up, my DP took my son to the toilet block nearest our tent while I was getting changed. While he waited for DS2 to come out, he spotted a woman on her own, very drunk and not seeming to know where she was or how to find her tent. He had to send DS2 back to our tent to find me, so that I could accompany him while he helped her find her way, as he was concerned for her safety in light of the attacks, but didn't want to be viewed as a potential attacker himself by trying to escort an obviously drunken woman somewhere. As it turned out, she had just got confused about which toilet block she was at so had turned the wrong way and after a little while wandering, we came across one of her friends who was looking for her who helped us get her back to where her group was camping so all turned out fine, but I think it is a horrible reflection on society if a) a woman can't get a bit pissed up and dress up without it being seen as an invitation to rape and b) a man can't try and help someone out without other people becoming suspicious of his motivation.

If rape wasn't so prevalent in our society, there would have been no fear for that girl's safety beyond her getting a bit upset at not being able to find her tent and my DP's actions would have been viewed as nothing more than a kind hearted attempt to help out someone in a bit of a state. I am very glad that DP is thoughtful enough to spy someone in a bit of a state and want to help her out. I guess I am glad that he was aware that some people might think he was trying to take advantage of her as well, because it shows that he thinks that people will still look out for each other and are aware that rapists are out there. Mostly I am glad that he had the presence of mind to send for me, so that we could both get her back safely without suspicion of wrongdoing and that all turned out well. But if none of those things had happened, and she had been attacked there is still nothing on Earth that could convince me it was her fault. Because it wouldn't be. There is nothing that could make it anything other than the attacker's fault.

ok peanut, i can see where you are coming from and ultimately we all have to educate ourselves and our kids about assessing risks, whether on roads or in our interactions with others..

but many posters have written persuasively that there so often aren't any signs, so no way of protecting ourselves..other than society refusing to allow men to get away with raping women and for men to stop raping, as chibi said

a start would be for women to stop excusing rape and sexual assault

well, my assault was the proverbial car mounting the pavement kind so to speak

however, i have been alone with male friends, stayed at male friends houses, had friends' partners give me a lift home etc, and i was never assaulted or raped any of those times

this is not because of anything i did or didn't do, but because the men i was with were not rapists

if they had been there is probably not a damn thing i could have done to stop it happening

i do not accept that i have to live like a zebra amongst lions and curtail my every action and movement as a result

it is not my job or responsibility to prevent shitty people doing shitty things to me

*Um...no, I don't.
In which way daft?

Seriously - google 'why men rape', click the amazon link, look inside book, search 'victim', and on p9 it says 'it is not sexual arousal but the arousal of anger or fear that leads to rape'*

And the question was...... - how do men choose potential (stranger) victims if clothing is not a factor.

You gave An answer just not to the question asked

It also suggested you know why men rape - totally!- well that would suggest you can fix it

But this information is not promoted, PH. The campaigns are limited to the internet, and very rarely heavily promoted. It's only by googling "rape" you'll find out such campaigns are running, and what information is available.

they rape because they are rapists

to fix it - stop excusing rape and hold rapists responsible for rape

OK, I'm going to throw in a biggie here.

You start dating a guy. Introduce him to DC. Is it your job to prevent him, if he turns out to be a shitty person, from doing shitty things to your children?

IMO, you should take the same caution with yourself as you would with DC.

Chibi - you asked about risk and planes. I used to teach a university course on risk and it suddenly struck me what a lot of this debate is actually about.

People/society often have huge difficulty assessing risk. Its a well known fact that individuals and society massively over/under assess the probability of a risk event happening.

For example, people worry far more about being in a plane crash than a car crash although the risk of dying is far higher in a car. If you want to avoid risk of being in a plane crash you could avoid going by plane and drive instead. That would be stupid though as it would actually increase your risk when your best choice is to go in a big jet plane, travelling at high speed and high altitude rather than a car or even a small plane, flying slow at low altitude.

Its the same problem here. Society telling women to avoid wearing short skirts and low cut tops in the belief that will reduce risk of rape when in fact it will do nothing of the sort and just diverts attention away from the real risk factors.

Sorry to intelectualise such a horrible thing but your question just caused a light bulb moment. Society's perception of the risk is completely skewed here. Hence women get blamed for somehow 'inviting' a risk when they did nothing of the sort and certain men, who are the real risk factor, get completely ignored.

Maybe instead of this being about what the victim could have known or should have done, it should be about what the attacker should have known and what the attacker should have done.

That way, instead of saying "the victim should have been educated on the danger signs", we could say "the attacker should have been educated on the repercussions of his actions and the fact that it is so obviously wrong to violate anyone in this way".

Saying that the victim could have done this or that, or should have done this or that, is still apportioning blame in the wrong place.

I'm also not saying it's neccessary to curtail every action and live in fear. But surely it's better to say "ok, I know the warning signs (where applicable) and I can apply such information".

If you get to a situation where you feel such information applies to an acquaintance, you ask for some time apart. IF they're honourable, they bloody rspect that decision.

MoreBeta - reluctant to argue with an expert but...

when I posted about avoiding a plane crash by not taking the plane, the alternative that I had in mind was not taking the trip at all. My alternative was not to drive.

I also think that academic discussions of risk are not always a good indicator of how you should act. The risk of MM being snatched from her apartment room was absolutely tiny - but it would have been better not to have left the children alone.

PH, I agree, and I do such on FB and twitter. But some of the information is sparse. To me, the government is not upholding it's responsibility.

LDN, whereas I agree in theory, I don't think its apportioning the blame to the victim at all. The attacker KNOWS the risks, but ignores them. Are you really saying if you had such information as to how to save yourself from a potential attack, or how to escape an attack, you wouldn't use it, because the attacker should know better?