to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

[countless]

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

rolls eyes you two are missiing the point. I'm not saying they'll be obvious things, but it'll be things like a trait in his personality.

I come from an abusive relationship. Now, had I known the warning signs for an abusive partner at the age of 18, I wouldn't have been with him. But I'm not saying it was my fault. In no way am I saying it's the victims fault. I'm sayiing there's most likely warning signs that through lack of education, us women don't know to look out for. And I don't know what they are at the moment, but I am NOT sayiing it's the woman's fault.

Otherwise, you could pput the blame on every single woman who's ever found herself in an abusive relationship. It's poor damn education on behalf of the government.

well, since young women, old women, women dressed this way, women dressed that way, women who fought back, women who lay still and prayed for it to be over, women who have a disability, women who are able bodied, female children all get raped,

it appears that the solution is don't be female because it seems that most people are happy to accept that rape is an occupational risk of being a woman, much as a plane crash is a risk of flying, inevitable by the nature of the thing

or, alternatively
men, quit raping women

i personally like the second option

4madboys, I don't think we know what the signs are. The reason we don't know the signs are that as a society we are so busy asking what women did to get raped that we don't spend much time working out what kind of personality a rapist has, and how that may manifest itself prior to a rape.

It should be researched, so that women can look for those signs, but at the moment, we have no way of doing so.

DCMP, I don't think it is common sense to avoid walking home alone. I walk home alone at night all the time, and always have done. I couldn't get home from work if I didn't. Then I get home and walk my dogs, alone, at night in a dark, secluded place (and occasionally do so in wedge heels). It is common sense not to restrict your movements in order to avoid something which only has a tiny chance of happening in the first place.

do any of the risk assessors have any good advice for these women?

facepalm Chibi, are you aware men can be victims of rape too? Yet, IIRC, a female has never been accused of raping a male in the UK because of how hard it is to prove

*4madboys, I don't think we know what the signs are. The reason we don't know the signs are that as a society we are so busy asking what women did to get raped that we don't spend much time working out what kind of personality a rapist has, and how that may manifest itself prior to a rape.

It should be researched, so that women can look for those signs, but at the moment, we have no way of doing so.* Thank you, Milly.

exactly milly, we dont know and whilst we WASTE time talking about what the WOMEN should have done differently and effectively apportioning some blame to them. no one is even remotely bothered in finding out WHY men rape and what can be done to stop it.

as always the emphasis is on women, rahter than the perpertrators.

happy to amend

men, quit raping anyone

facepalm yourself

any words of advice for the congolese women? shall we add don't be congolese or don't live in a warzone to the list of sensible precautions?

I completely agree that the blame lies firmly at the feet of the rapist when it comes to actually committing the rape, but the attitude of society that allows the rape to take place have their share of the blame as well.

If conviction rates were higher, there would be less repeat offenders out there. If sentences were harsher, there would be less 'incentive' to rape. If society as a whole stood up and said to rapists "What you have done is abhorrent, it will not be tolerated, it is entirely your fault now kindly fuck off to jail for 10 years" I truly believe there would be less rapes and sexual assaults. If we didn't live in a society that thinks that male attention is something every woman should be constantly seeking, perhaps we wouldn't have a situation where someone being groped in a club/shopping centre/park was acceptable because "you should take it as a compliment"

I was at Latitude last year, you may remember that there were 2 rapes reported (which leads me to assume, given available stats on reporting that more than 2 assaults took place). There were posters up around site which described what the victims were wearing (denim mini and leggings FWIW) but no mention of what the attacker was wearing. The clear message from that was that the attacker was selecting victims based on their attire and so women should avoid wearing those clothes to avoid attack. If the posters had referred to what the attacker was wearing, or a vague physical description of him, then more women could have been 'on guard' around men fitting that description. Instead both those posters and a couple of the news reports I saw on the attacks when I got home focused on the girl's attire. That furthers the ridiculous notion that the victims were somehow to blame because leggings are easy to remove and a mini skirt is no physical barrier, at a time when that was the fashion and every third woman I saw was wearing exactly that, or without the leggings because it was damn hot and we were in a field with little shade.

It is far more likely that those victims were selected because they were alone, near the toilets were a lone man loitering wouldn't arouse suspicion and it was a time of the day when not many people were around, than because of what they were wearing, yet their clothing is what was reported on. It is precisely this culture that allows rapists to continue committing attacks. No one asks to be attacked, in any way. No one has the right to decide that another person is asking for it because nothing anyone does can be construed as an open invitation to attack, yet one of the first things mentioned in any rape case it what the victim was wearing/what state she was in. Until that changes, then society is effectively condoning rape and giving rapists a get out of jail free card by letting them use the victim's appearance/state as an excuse.

A woman can't be found guilty of rape (except as an accessory to a man raping another person), because rape, by legal definition, is the insertion of a penis into part of a body.

A woman would be convicted of another type of sexual assault if she forcibly had sex with another person.

But men do get raped, by other men.

and what pious just said!!

"I cannot vouch for all the male gender, and some of those are rapists.

Still no excuse, but the word "provocation" is there in the background and a good lawyer may sway enough of a jury..."

But you can only provoke a rapist, surely? The point is, most men are not rapists and therefore provocation isn't possible - it's only possible if you are a rapist.

You know what, Chibi. You are actually staring to piss me off. I'm not saying EVERY case is avoidable. And unfortunately, it's Congo's society which is allowing those rapes to happen. Not the fucking women.

I'm not saying any women are allowing rape to happen. But what if you knew that a man trying to spend an increased amount of time alone with you was a sign that he may be planning to rape you? Would you stay around him? Well?

Milly, in the legal definition, yes, you're right. But in the moral definition. Lets say you have a man, heavily aroused, but doesn't want to have intercourse with the girl he's with. She climbs on top of him and proceeds to have sex with him despite his protests otherwise. That is rape. And it happens.

you know what peanut, i could say the same.

unfortunately the odds are good that you know someone who has been sexually assaulted or raped. i can only hope that you don't spout off about how to avoid being assaulted/raped in front of them, i can only imagine how offensive and hurtful that must be

you seem obtuse and lacking in empathy enough to do it though, tbh

Well said Peanut. Posts 190 and 191.

No, it's not rape Peanuts, it's sexual assault, it's a crime, and a woman can be prosecuted for it.

peanut isn't our society that's allowing women to be raped here too?

why are women so ready to construct a defence for rape?? scenarios where it might be at least partially the victims fault..

as an earlier poster said it must be about believing rape only happens to other women and there must have been a reason why it happened..to accept that any of us could be raped at any time and there's no way of protecting ourselves is too scary to contemplate..

i remember a thread a couple of years ago that asked if people had ever been sexually assaulted and reported it, made horrific reading. the number and range of incidents seem to prove that most women will or have experience some form of sexual assault.

so it's all the more depressing to hear those entrenched views here from mn-etters.

I have been raped Chibi. Thank you very much

Chibi, it's possible your point would come across better if you weren't sensationalising examples. And insulting people whose opinion differs from yours.

i am sorry to hear that.

i was sexually assaulted. it was not my fault, and i could not have avoided it by changing my behaviour in any way.

i did nothing to make it happen, any more than people who died in a train derailling did anything to make it happen, and there were no sensible precautions i could have taken to avoid it.

chibi's points are all concise and true, uncomfortable reading but true

piousprats's post is excellent too

did you read it squeaky/ tidy et al?

do you not agree with any of it?

Yes, countless, our society IS allowing rape to happen. But no one does anything about it, by way of providing education as to what to look out for. There aren't publicly available reports to the personality of a rapist, and how he may act before a rape. There aren't campaigns saying that if you notice x y and z traits in a man, then be aware.

If you knew that a man was showing personality signs synonymous with those of a rape, would you still let yourself be iin a situation where you were alone with him? Because I can't believe anyone would.

It's the man's fault for perpetrating rape. It's societies fault for holding views that a woman was asking for it. It's the governments fault for not encouraging a campaign which highlights the warning signs of your potential rapist, which could empower and save a lot of women.