to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

[countless]

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

[CookieRookie]

excellent post MillyR

[squeakytoy]

It is very dangerous to tell young women that what they wear will put them in danger or keep them safer, because it stops them concentrating on the actual thing that puts them in danger - the behaviour of dangerous men and the signals that those men give off in entirely ordinary, non-sexual situations

I cannot agree with that. Strangers who rape are often never seen by the victim, because they have lurked behind a wall, or in a doorway. They dont want to be recognised, so they dont approach the woman and let her see them.

[TidyDancer]

Still wondering about that "pretty" in her post.
And it still doesn't change the fact that if men didn't rape, there would be no rape.

I didn't mean you to think I was commenting on the pretty part. That's for sqeaky to address, as I see she has. And of course it doesn't, in reference to your second point.

[beckibicker]

everyone has personal responsiblity to keep themselves safe. Unfortunately or fortunately that means deciding what is and what isnt appropriate dress

[xstitch]

IME experience rape is always blamed on the victim. Much easier to kick someone when the are down than to stand up to a bully. If they victim wasn't wearing skimpy clothes then people will search for some other reason to blame them.

It is wrong and disgusting but a fact of life in today's society. Then people wonder why women don't report rape or report it then can't go through with it. The answer is staring everyone in the face.

[DontCallMePeanut]

YANBU!

Both times I got groped, I was wearing nothing revealing. At all.

Now, this si my problem with the "it was her fault for wearing something revealing/provocative". You can head to the beach in a bikini, or a swimsuit. Very revealing, and no one bats an eyelid, or tries to grope them... If it happens, it's not a frequent occurence. But If you put on a mini dress, which is a bit too short for society's liking, then you're asking for it.

Now, the problem with that theory is that it suggests men have no control over their actions. Both times I was groped, I freaked out on the guys, and they made no attempt to do it again, even though they'd frequently drink in the place where I worked. The whole theory animalises men, AND takes an element of freedom away from men.

Secondly, someone's perception of what is suitable attire is entiely relative. Life doesn't come with a rules list saying necklines must fit this description, and skirts should be a-line and knee length. What I deem acceptable attire is more liberal than what my mother deems acceptable, but more conservative than what my niece considers acceptable.

Thirdly, if this theory stands true, then explain the sexual assaults on women wearing everyday casual wear. The first time I got groped, I was wearing black trousers and a peasant cut top (I can't remember the name for it) The second time, I was wearing bootleg jeans and a v neck tshirt.

England is patri-bloody-archal enough. Without women being told what they can wear and what they can't wear. Men can, for the most part, control those urges. They just choose not too, then use what a women was wearing at the time as an excuse.

[MillyR]

Squeakytoy, do you have any evidence whatsoever that rapists target women who wear particular clothes?

Do you have some particular insight into the minds of rapists?

Or are you just making it up?

[MillyR]

Exactly, DCMP, why aren't swimming pools full of rapists if they particularly like scantily clad women?

[DontCallMePeanut]

I cannot agree with that. Strangers who rape are often never seen by the victim, because they have lurked behind a wall, or in a doorway. They dont want to be recognised, so they dont approach the woman and let her see them

Not neccessarily. Bear in mind, the majority of rapes are commited by accquaintances. Add to that, the phenonemom of date rape. A rapist will need to pick his victim, so at some point, they WILL see him. It's just if they remember seeing him that makes a difference.

[CravingExcitement]

Clothing is a total red herring. It completely misses the point.

[DontCallMePeanut]

For all those that think rape and sexual assaults are carried out mainly by strangers, you'd be wrong.

It's estimated 8% of rapes are carried out by strangers. 54% are carried out by current or former partners. You're more at risk from your husband or your ex than some random guy you've never met.

[greenlime]

Of course the rapist is 100% responsible for the crime. There is no question of that.

If there is a rapist on the street looking for a victim (it's dark etc), he will probably go for the easiest one. If someone is wearing heels, they can't run away well so they may well be the easist one. It's not about shifting the responsibility for the crime onto the victim, it's about trying to make sure that you are not the victim of a crime which a rapist has already decided to commit before he even saw you personally.

[4madboys]

how fucking depressing that women are saying that you are somehow responsible or not being responsible enough if you go out wearing a short skirt and heels.

the issue is not what women do or dont do, it is that some men get off on the power or raping someone.

quite frankly it shouldnt matter what you wear, you SHOULD be able to walk around naked and NO should still mean no.

and anecdotal but when i was attacked, my a friend of a friend, i was wearing shorts, t-shirt and trainers, it the summer a nice warm evening. i did actually 'like' they guy, well found him cute, we flirted a bit (i was 16) but when i said NO and made it clear that i didnt want to have sex with him then he should have listened, not carried on anyway and laughed at me as i cried and begged him to stop.

and i didnt report it, precisely because i knew the reaction that most women get is that they were 'asking for it'

[TidyDancer]

Well said, greenlime. Particularly your last sentence.

[DontCallMePeanut]

Of course the rapist is 100% responsible for the crime. There is no question of that.

If there is a rapist on the street looking for a victim (it's dark etc), he will probably go for the easiest one. If someone is wearing heels, they can't run away well so they may well be the easist one. It's not about shifting the responsibility for the crime onto the victim, it's about trying to make sure that you are not the victim of a crime which a rapist has already decided to commit before he even saw you personally.

Although I agree wholeheartedly wiith what you're saying, I do think that these campaigns foor women's safety don't focus enough on what the warning signs are if someone you know is likely to attack you. After all, 92% of rapes are carried out by someone the victim knows. There has to be a way that women know what the warning signs are. Could prevent a lot of rapes.

[TidyDancer]

4madboys, have you read the whole thread? Virtually no one is saying that women are responsible. In fact, I don't think anyone is.

[MillyR]

Advising women on how to avoid rape by telling them not to wear heels in case a complete stranger runs at them at night from a dark alley, is like teaching children road safety advice based on not having a conversation when walking along the pavement because they might not have time to jump out of the way when a driver swerves off the road and mounts the pavement.

Yes it happens. I know people who have been seriously injured as a consequence and it is tragic. But it avoids discussing the circumstances that the overwhelming number of tragedies happen under.

[TidyDancer]

Peanut, that's an interesting point actually. I think if you were to conduct a pop-up poll on the street right now WRT the percentages applicable to stranger rape, most people would be nowhere near correct. That is certainly something the public as a whole (ie men and women) need to be educated on.

[chibi]

can you explain how sexual assault is not the victim's fault but she could have avoided it if she had x, y, z? because it seems a bit contradictory

[DontCallMePeanut]

Tidy, it's something I'd like to see a campaign on, or even produce a campaign on, but have no idea where to start. I don't think I've ever come across a major campaign saying "look, girls, you're more likely to be raped by someone you know, and there will be warning signs in some of these cases... yada yada..."

[TidyDancer]

If you ever figure out how/where to start on that one, Peanut, consider my help a given. It is a horrifying naivety of many people that stranger rape is the most common rape. The extremity of the percentages would stun many I feel.

[greenlime]

chibi - I think the answer is this:

-the rapist is going to commit the crime, he's decided that so it's his fault
-but the question is who is he going to rape - the woman who can run away in trainers or the one who is going to struggle to get away in heels. I think that's what is meant by avoiding the crime (but someone else will be the victim because it is going to take place).

Anyway just to explain that bit.

I do of course take Peanut's point that most rapes are not stranger rapes like the dark alley scenerio.

[Mamaz0n]

sexual assault is very rarely about sex. it is not because a man is so overcome by desire that they just couldn't help themselves.

It is about power and control.

whether you are wearing a bikini or a burkha it is irrelevant.

for anyone to think any different is to try and blame the victim for her attackers actions.

[MillyR]

If that is the thinking of a rapist, then he's more likely to attack the elderly, children, women laden down with children/babies/pushchairs and the disabled than women in heels.

[greenlime]

MillyR - I don't agree with your point comparing rape to traffic accidents. There are millions of rapes and far fewer cases of drivers running pedestrians over by mounting the pavement. It's not at all comparable and it is a better option to walk home (at midnight in a dark place, say) wearing trainers rather than heels.