to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

[countless]

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

Just to make it clear, I don't agree with a curfew for men either. The suggestion, by many others than DontCallMePeanut (including the police) that women should stay off the streets after dark is equally unfair. And after dark in winter is before the end of the standard work day.

I exercise plenty of caution, by the way, even though I do walk home alone in the dark. I am not totally reckless. I am much more viligant about situations where I am at increased risk of harm, though, and the risk of stranger rape is way down the list.

Waitg. don't put fucking words oon the page that I haven't said/.Where did I say women should stay off the street after dark?.

What the fuxck is this, take everything peanut says and twist it, or misquote her, or attribute something someone else said and attribute it to her?

Gosh some strong views on here.

I am female.
I am not going to start covering myself from head to toe.
I am not going to avoid being outside on my own after dark.
I am not going to avoid being in situations where I might be alone with a man I don't know as this will greatly restrict my freedom (work, travelling etc).
I am not going to take a view that all men I meet are potential rapists and I must fear them.
If I drank/took drugs I would not moderate myself any more than the people I was with because I happened to be female.
I refuse to live my life afraid of my shadow.

It will not be my fault if I get raped. Get it?

And anyway, doing that stuff won't stop me getting raped. As I am most likely to be raped by someone I know. So why not relax and enjoy life, and hope for the best.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

round of applause for SardineQueen !

I apologise, DontCallMePeanut. I got my thoughts going around the curfew thing that we were discussing and lumped you in. You didn't say that.

The police do and other posters on this thread and the other one did say that women should not walk home alone at night. Men walking home alone are much more at risk of harm and I have rarely (ever?) seen such advice given to them.

And yes, SardineQueen hits the bullseye as she usually does on these threads. Thank you.

Right, sorry. I've calmed down. Something someone said managed to trigger a panic attack/flashback.

Back in a minute

Hope you're OK, DontCallMePeanut.

Its a daft Idea

in summer if a man is topless I don't run across the street and assault him becasue I'm not an animal.
the idea that its a 'loss of control' reminds of some sort of hulk/tazmanian devil moment which it usually isn't. Or it would havent in the middle of the street etc, not deliberatly waiting till the person is aloner, alleyway, in a house alone. the idea that is a 'loss of control bugs me.

Right. It seems some of what I've said has been miscontrued. Or hasn't come out right.

First off, I'm not a misogynist. I have not and WOULD not put the blame on the victim. Ever. Nor am I saying every man is a rapist, or has the potential to be such

No woman should live in fear. But it happens.

All I'm saying is surely it's better to exercise a healthy level of caution, and judge a situation the best you can. Don't presume the best from everyone, and if someone makes you uncomfortable, get out of that situation. I know there's not always warning signs. But when they're there, you take advantage. We can't rely on the "Men just shouldn't rape us women" theory. It would be ideal that no, they didn't. But as of yet, there's no way of stopping a rapist from at least intending to strike. So, you use your judgement.

Is that opinion so unreasonable?

I'm ok thank you, AyeRobot. I knew this would be a difficult subject to contend with. Even more so considering yesterday was 2 years since I left the ex I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

don'tcallmepeanut you post some strange, off kilter angles on rape, which I find rather disturbing. You seem to think women have a duty to take precautions, to live their lives, in order to avoid being raped. You attempt to justify this as being common sense. However we do not live in a society where this is commonly accepted. We are hopefully moving towards higher conviction rates for rapists and I hope, and suspect, that shortly in the future, such attitudes will be seen as incredibly outdated. Personally, I think the greatest protection against rape is avoiding men who harbour these sort of attitudes, and it is ironic that you have not realised this.

However I do wonder whether all the publcity that burka wearing gets makes some men and women think that if women are not covered up, then they are somehow putting themselves at greater risk of rape.

Do you know, I think that if a man raped me, and succeeded (because I would really try to fight back, and did indeed give a kicking to a flasher who attempted to pull me down a lane when I was walking home), I would later kill them? I would be so fucking angry.

I sometimes wish I had killed my rapist. I would be free by now if I had. The consequence though would be never seeing my daughter again and for her to have the knowledge that her mum was a murderer. Furthermore I would be seen by society as a violent murderer and him as a poor helpless victim.

The only alternative I have is to keep my head down and take the daily humiliation and watch him live the life of riley while making my life a misery still.

Its the price I will pay to stay a mother to my daughter.

Nijinsky, I'm not saying women should be permanently panicky. And I'm not saying a woman should live in fear. What I'm saying is that a woman has a suspicion about a man, an uneasy feeling about him, then she should do what is neccessary to avoid being alone with him.

It would still be his fault if he attacked her, regardless.

You've obviously misunderstood my posts.

xstitch, have you never reported it?

Nijinsky

I actually agree with a lot of what Don'tcallmepeanut says and I Mrs B do think you have a 'duty to avoid being raped' a duty to YOURSELF that is. To me self protection is a necessary skill to teach your DDs I don't give a shit about being PC or looking up acedemic surveys ect.

It is a load of pretension twaddle to try and convince women that somehow men fall into different catergories because at the end of the day you never really know what a man may be capable of until the day they turn on you.

So if someone dresses provocatively maybe they are looking for a sexual partner, but one that they want. Rape is having sex with someone who doesn't want you. The crucial difference is the one that rapists don't seem to get. ' the woman doesn't want YOU.'

No, there is no point the police would just say it was my fault and he had every right to do what he did because we were technically still married at the time. He has already destroyed me in court over other things (why let the truth get in the way), makes my life hell with SS. Absolutely everyone in town would support him and as I am not allowed to move I would have to live with the back lash.

I already had to leave the church because the congregation didn't want a tarty single mum in their midst. I have to endure spiteful comments in the street. I am in no hurry to make that worse. DD is old enough to hear and understand what they say I cannot let it ruin her life too. Safer to keep my mouth shut in RL.

The way I see it. If you can do ONE LITTLE THING to prevent yourself from being raped, then surely you should do so? It doesn't mean the attack is your fault if you don't do so.

You seem to think women have a duty to take precautions, to live their lives, in order to avoid being raped. You attempt to justify this as being common sense. However we do not live in a society where this is commonly accepted. We are hopefully moving towards higher conviction rates for rapists and I hope, and suspect, that shortly in the future, such attitudes will be seen as incredibly outdated. Personally, I think the greatest protection against rape is avoiding men who harbour these sort of attitudes, and it is ironic that you have not realised this.

I know this was addressed to Peanut, but I feel I have to respond too as I think in that way too.

Everyone (man and woman) has a duty to take precautions to protect their own safety, not just against rape, but against any type of crime. It IS common sense. Would anyone tell their elderly relative it is fine to walk along swinging their handbag loosely. I very much doubt it, because within our society are scumbags who dont give a shit about the law, and will just take whatever they want, because they can. Rather than smugly saying "I have the right to do whatever I want", surely it is sensible to take certain measures to make yourself less of a target.

Rape will never be acceptable, but that does not mean it doesnt happen. It does. And while most rapes are by people know to the victim, there are still plenty that are done by strangers. Many many go unreported and not get accounted for on official "statistics". It doesnt mean it hasnt happened.

Also, how do you know what attitudes a man "harbours" until it is often too late? Nothing is foolproof (or "rape proof").

No one ever tells women that in order to avoid rape, they should arm themselves and kill their attackers, do they?

It would be a very rum do if the police issued advice which instead of saying: "Women - a man is raping some of you in this dark and scarey area which happens to be near your home/ office/ child's school, so dont' go there" they said: "women - a man is raping some of you in this dark and scarey area so if you go there, make sure you take a really big knife and carry out a pre-emptive attack on any male who approaches you, lest he be a rapist. It is of course, unfortunate if an innocent male sustains injuries or suffers death as a result of your pro-active self-defence, but after all, if he'd wanted to be safe, he shouldn't have gone to an area where he might be mistaken for a rapist."

Can you imagine the outrage? But that's basically what women are being told.

xstitch. Just because you were still married does not mean he has the right to rape you. Are you really sure that the town would support him? Or is the result of abuse which has convinced you as such?

I'm not going to criticise your decision either way. I just think it's worth you knowiong that the police don't always take the view of "they were still married, it was her fault". It couldn't have been your fault

No, don'tcallmepeanut, I think you are unncessarily complicating things. Few people have the benefit of second sight and would not expect someone to be a rapist, and then when it becomes obvious that they are in danger, it would be too late. Many criminals are also cunning, and wait to put their victim at their ease, before striking.

squeatoyt good point but what I am getting at is if you encourage these sort of attitudes (that women can avoid rape by dressing conservatively and have a duty to avoid situations where rape may be more likely), you end up with a society where rape is not so taboo, particularly in certain cases (e.g. where a woman has goodness me allowed herself to be drunk in the presence of a man, or is wearing what the average young woman wears on a night out). Then you end up with a dangerously primitive country where those borderline rapists who would be deterred from rape by the stigma feel almost permitted by society to do so.

Imagine if male rape were more common that it was, or if it were very prevalent in a certain locale. Can you imagine people saying "Well, he was asking for it by wearing tight fitting trousers, you could see the shape of his buttocks, and his shirt was open to the third button?". Or "He walked down X lane in the dark, where there was a rape 6 months ago, he wasn't taking precautions for his own safety". Its utterly ridiculous.

I am 99.9% sure they would support him. They have supported him in every vile thing he as done so far. Believe me has has done a lot. Admittedly rape is on another level but apparently he is 'such a nice chap, why are you not still with him' Sick of hearing that. Ironically he had actually left me. Didn't want the marriage but still wanted the control and still does.

Difficult to explain without outing where I live but it is a rather small town, not far off a village. It is very 'cliquey' and I am an interlouper so on the back foot already (grew up here but my parents didn't). There are people in this place you really don't want to upset if you value your safety. So it is a safety mechanism.

How is expecting someone to act on instinct overcomplicating things? Or to take measures so that they are safe (or as much as can be). Simple things like carrying a rape alarm can actually help. I feelk safer when I have my rape alarm with me. A lot safer. Even though I know the risk of me being raped again is low, at least I have a way to scare off an attacker.

I'd expect the same from my brother, mind. I'd expect him to safeguard himself.

I go out and have a good time, get drunk in the presence of men. But I trust my instincts. Maybe I'm just lucky there. But I have heard a lot of people say "I had a funny feeling about him, but I thought I was being silly".

You do what is necessary to protect your children. Why not do the same for yourself? I mean, in worse case scenario, who looks after the kids then?