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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think there's no item of clothing or lack of that puts a woman at risk of sexual assault?

493 replies

countless · 15/05/2011 10:12

i was just listening to 2 women and a man on r4 discussing the upcoming slut march, the name makes me cringe but i get the idea behind it...
the consensus of the 2 women was that women should be aware that what they wear has an effect upon other people that they is out of their control...

the male presenter very wisely didn't comment.

am i alone in thinking this is profoundly depressing? do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault??

why don't people realise that any woman or girl is at risk from a rapist and that no one is 'asking for it'. which is the message i take from discussions on womens clothing

OP posts:
DontCallMePeanut · 15/05/2011 15:36

The WHY they're doing it is irrelevant. Couldn't agree more.

FWIW, I carry a rape alarm. At all times. Possibly part of the PTSD. In no way does that make me think that a woman who doesn't carry one is at blame.

Likewise, with the information point I was trying to make. If a woman doesn't utilise that information, she still isn't at blame. But the information could give her an added... alarm, so to speak. Something to safeguard herself with.

We safeguard our DC, so why not ourselves? Our DC need us to be safe as much as they need to be safe.

LDNmummy · 15/05/2011 15:38

"you wouldn't let just anyone into your childs life, and rely on them being a decent enough person not to rape your child, would you?"

And it is not always a stranger that can assault or rape. When it comes to abuse of children or rape in general, it is usually carried out by someone you know very well and trust, including parents.

I think in the states over 70% of sexual assault on children is done by a parent or close relative.

There is also the element of psychological and emotional manipulation that goes into it. Considering rape is usually planned in advance, a person could build your trust in them over an extensive period of time before acting. Similar to what an abuser does.

troisgarcons · 15/05/2011 15:40

Of course the rapist is 100% responsible for the crime. There is no question of that.

This is where we go into "degrees" of rape.

Hear me out before going into a baying pack of wolves.

The "worst" sort - Peter Sutcliffe - didn't always kill, sexual motive.

Is that on a par with a woman who goes home (willingly) with a new acquaintance, both get their kit off, start some rumpy pumpy, she sobers up half way through and changes her mind? Of course in an ideal world he should roll off and jack off in the bathroom - but by the very fact she has changed her mind, that makes him, if not a rapist, then a man who sexually assaults a woman.

A man, always 100% responsible? hmmmm. We see an awful lot of this shit now a days in the papers - where the man gets his life, career totally ruined by some vacuous, guilty cow who gets a late dose of the regrets.

yummybutterbiscuit · 15/05/2011 15:40

I've not read through the thread as I dont ave a lot of time just now, but wanted to post my opinion on the OP. I think there are things that people can do to lower the risk.

if you look at pregnancy, there are lots of things you do, or avoid doing, to minimise the chances of something going wrong. But there is still the chance that you do everything as healthily as you can, and something still goes wrong. But there is of course a higher chance of something going wrong if you go against the guidlines. (although no matter what you do there is still the chance that nothing will go wrong)

I think its a similar situation. there are creeps out there that will prey on anyone, and they will always be a danger to everyone. But there are some cases where the rapist or groper is a drunk guy who assumed he's gone after someone who's 'easy' and is annoyed to have been knocked back.

dressing like a slut does not guarentee you will be attacked, same as dressing demurely doesnt mean you are safe, but in my opinion, you are more at risk if you dress a certain way.

sorry if I've x-posted with anyone...

LDNmummy · 15/05/2011 15:45

"Is that on a par with a woman who goes home (willingly) with a new acquaintance, both get their kit off, start some rumpy pumpy, she sobers up half way through and changes her mind? Of course in an ideal world he should roll off and jack off in the bathroom - but by the very fact she has changed her mind, that makes him, if not a rapist, then a man who sexually assaults a woman."

Actually it doesn't work that way. It is if she said no before any penetration took place and he just continued without her consent.

If they were already having a shag and she changes her mind, tat is not classed as rape unless he CARRIES ON without her consent.

In that case, why didn't he just get off her and have a wank? What, because they have started he should continue even though she has changed her mind (which she has every right to do)?

Bloody stupid point IMO.

LDNmummy · 15/05/2011 15:48

"Of course in an ideal world he should roll off and jack off in the bathroom"

Thats not what should happen in an ideal world, thats what should happen in a rational and common sense world.

troisgarcons · 15/05/2011 15:51

I think in the states over 70% of sexual assault on children is done by a parent or close relative.

Approximately 78 children per annum are killed by parent/step-parent/foster parent in the UK every year - 7-8 children are abducted and killed by strangers. That statistic has barely moved since the inception of published statistics in Victorian times, despite the vast increase in population.

Therefore we can deduce my children are 12 times safe with you than me and vice versa

greentown · 15/05/2011 15:52

PiousPrat - PrinceHumperdink doesn't want to address what the tread is about - I do.

PrinceHumperdink - If someone wears skimpy clothes, they are not making themselves more likely to be attacked in general because a rapist could just as easily target old women wearing pacamacs.

That's actually the most valid point you've made. If the factor of selection - the trigger - is rubber/latex etc then a rpist may well select a victim on that basis.

You're referring to a text from 1979 - a lot more interesting work - with supporting data has been done since then. You're such a literalist --- when it suits you.

For a man who rapes women - what are the selection criteria - ie how does he choose?

  1. must be a woman
  2. what age group does he prefer
  3. what race, colour
  4. hair, build, appearance
  5. what stimulates him

And so on, none of this can be controlled the victim, that is, she can do nothing about it because each rapist is different and you never know what you will encounter BUT rapists are exposed to the same stimuli as the rest of society and will largely be activated by the same urges BUT unlike the rest of society, they will act violently on those urges.

So, you are probably less likely to be the victim of a pacamac fetishist rapist simply because the number of males aroused by that particular stimulus is small - and, as in the wider society, correspondingly, very few of those would
be potential rapists.

However, other clothing is very widely used in society to create sexual arousal - often profitably exploited by 'glamour models' to sell masturbation material to men.

If you wear this kind of clothing you will create sexual arousal in a far greater number of men and, consequently, even statistically speaking alone, the wider the population sample who share a particular arousal trigger, the more likely it is to include at least some men capable of sexual attack.

CookieRookie · 15/05/2011 15:53

Peanut I agree with your point to an extent in that there are definately signs exhibited by an abuser in some cases and should women be aware of what those signs might be they would be in a position to protect themselves by ending a relationship but beyond relationship rape it would be next to impossible for women to know what to be aware of. Also not all abusers would show signs and not all women would pick up on those signs anyway leading to LDN's point that should she be raped she could be seen as having done nothing to protect herself if it were to go to court. The bigger battle would be to tackle to obvious ignorance that still rages on in todays society.

How that can be done I have no idea but I do know it's not letting women, any woman take the blame for being raped no matter what information she had, what clothes she wore or what she did prior to the second she said or implied NO

PrinceHumperdink · 15/05/2011 15:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thefinerthingsinlife · 15/05/2011 16:02

I can not believe in this day and age people can not comprehend
WOMEN ARE NEVER TO BE BLAME FOR THEIR RAPE! THE REASON THEY ARE RAPED IS BECAUSE THE PERSON WHO HAS DONE IT IS A RAPIST. THE RAPIST IS THE ONE TO BLAME! NOT CLOTHING, NOT SHE WAS DRUNK, NOT THE 101 OTHER BULLSHIT REASONS PUT FORWARD TO BLAME THE VICTIM

THE RAPIST IS THE ONE TO BLAME!

To the poster who pointed out that men get raped too. YES THEY GET RAPED BY OTHER MEN!

aliceliddell · 15/05/2011 16:02

Oh, Troisgarcons 15.40.10, pull yourself together - vacuous, guilty cow gets a late dose of the regrets and ruins a man's life. On what planet is this the most pressing issue concerning sexual violence and the judicial system? 1 in 5 women in Britain is raped. Are 1 in 5 men falsely prosecuted for rape? Just remind you of the 6.5% conviction rate for reported rapes. And that only 10% are reported.

TidyDancer · 15/05/2011 16:03

thefinerthingsinlife, with the greatest respect, please read the whole thread.

greentown · 15/05/2011 16:06

Oh PrinceHumperdink - you are soooooo literal to the point where I think you are deliberately trying to deceive.

Where did I say that a fetishist was a rapist - read again - I didn't say that anywhere.

Anger and fear MAY be explanations for rape PER SE.

How do rapists SELECT their victims??? What criteria do they use to choose one potential victim over another??

Go back to the OP's original question

troisgarcons · 15/05/2011 16:07

To the poster who pointed out that men get raped too. YES THEY GET RAPED BY OTHER MEN!

Joyce McKinney - very high profile case in the 70's. Where she held and sexually assualted, and had intercourse with a man against his will. But as the offence of rapre perpetrated by a female hadn't been invented in the statute books she was just a kidnapper

1 in 5 women in Britain is raped
really? statistically 47,000 per annum are raped in a population of 60 million, that does not equate to 1 in 5. Even over a life time.

aliceliddell · 15/05/2011 16:08

X posted with everything after 15.52. Finerthings - so simple. so true. so misunderstood. by the so simple. Of course you are right.

thefinerthingsinlife · 15/05/2011 16:09

My response was to the OP!
and the person who said men get raped too thanks tidydancer

aliceliddell · 15/05/2011 16:10

Troisgarcons - did you read to the end? 6.5% convicted, 10% reported.

TidyDancer · 15/05/2011 16:12

Then perhaps you should've made that clear. Because it didn't seem like that.

troisgarcons · 15/05/2011 16:13

The offence of Rape (Sec 1(1) SOA 2003) can only be committed by a man; however, a woman can be charged with, or convicted of rape as a secondary party. For example, a woman may be convicted of rape where she facilitated (helped) a man who has raped another person.

Women cannot directly rape - therefore, even if a sexual predator, cannot be convicted of such an offence. Ergo, we don't have female rapists. She can only be convicted if she assisted or procured.

troisgarcons · 15/05/2011 16:15

Troisgarcons - did you read to the end? 6.5% convicted, 10% reported.

So by that simple line we have, already a simple 3.5% not guilty verdicts. Why would that be?

xstitch · 15/05/2011 16:16

and that makes it right for me or any other woman to be raped? Is that what you are saying trois

HerBeX · 15/05/2011 16:19

Viz what sort of things should women look out for in order to avoid rape? I think women should be told that men who express extremely entitled views about rape should be avoided as they may be rapists.

For example, the ones who say "well if she led him on", "if she was smilign and laughing and flirting with him beforehand" "i mean, she was in the bed naked with him".

Men who aren't rapists, are very clear that none of these factors gives them the right to enter a woman's body without her willing consent. Men who are rapists, are a bit hazy on it. HTH.

blackcurrants · 15/05/2011 16:28

yep, HerBeX has it right. If a man doesn't respect me saying "no" - whether it's 'no, don't tickle me, it's just not funny, I said NO' or 'no, I don't want to talk to you in this pub I am here with my mates, go away' or 'no, I don't want a drink, I don't care if you've already bought it, I said no' - then he's decidedly dodgy.

If he doesn't respect one "no" then he doesn't get the idea of consent. That's about the biggest red flag I can think of, for a potential rapist. There's also a great book called "The Gift of Fear" which I think everyone should read. Everyone.

But all this talk is about how women can avoid being raped. Have you noticed that? What can I do to avoid being raped? If I don't walk on the cracks in the pavement maybe the bears won't eat me...

Men can avoid raping, and they can avoid perpetrating rape culture, and rape myths like 'women ask for it' or 'she said yes then changed her mind' or whatever toxic nonsense is at hand. men can stop rape The onus should be on rapists to stop raping.

And regarding greentown's insistence that rapists are just like other men in what they fancy, only rapier - I'm not sure I agree. That discounts the instances of 'corrective rape', the fact that most rapists are opportunistic rapists, etc.

Rape isn't about sexual desire, it's about violence and power. If you hit me on the head with a banjo, it's not bluegrass music, it's assault. If you attack me with a penis it's not sex, it's assault.

troisgarcons · 15/05/2011 16:31

xstitch Sun 15-May-11 16:16:55
and that makes it right for me or any other woman to be raped? Is that what you are saying trois

No it's not - I do dislike posters who put words in my mouth - or at my fingers tips and attribute opinons I do not hold to me.

Rape - JMHO - is often never clear cut. When we talk in general terms about rape we automatically default to the worst case scenario of the Sutciffe variety (or indeed Denis Nilsen - but he was a necropheliac) forgetting that there are somewhat lesser varieties BUT that does not give anyone the right to violate anothers body (male or female) be that sexual assault or violent conduct.

If you go back and read my posts (the majority early on) I've been adamant that society projects sterotypes and no matter how educated we think we are, those sterotypes pop into our head at inopportune moments - and that roundly brings us back to the OP - do people still think that it's womens clothing or lack of that encourages sexual assault?? and we've discovered - it shouldn't but can be a factor