to wonder why some people bother sending their children to school?

[StatelyPoshBeartrothal]

This was sparked by the term time holiday thread, but is NOT a thread about a thread. Choosing to take your DC out for a holiday, while not something I will do (preschoolers ATM) doesn't mean you don't value your child's education IMO.

However, the thread is riddled with people saying "they'll learn as much on a family holiday as they do at school", "Ask what the lessons planned are - no doubt watching a load of DVDs" etc etc

Do people really value the education provided to their children so little? Or are these the people who home ed or go private? How does the panic over getting into a "good" school at admission time turn into such dissilusion a few years later? Is this the schools' fault?

Well, if it's the few weeks after their exams at the end of the year, they really do do absolute naff all, and would probably learn more from a holiday.

Agree with a lot of what you say but I don't understand your comment about people who home ed or go private talking about watching a load of dvds.

Do you mean that you are wondering if that is the perception of state schooling held by those who home ed or go private?

What I mean is if that's the opinion they hold of state education then presmably they must either home or privately educate -I wouldn't trust my child's education to somewhere I thought so little of.

Thanks for ensuring I clarify though - I am not saying that all or even most home edders or private schoolers think this about state schools at all. I would imagine most of them focus on the needs of their children. I would consider private education, but I can see that I am surrounded by outstanding schools, where I live (County Durham). I know not everyone is as lucky, but surely you don't just think it's crap but there you go - 6hrs a day for the next 12 years. And if you do you certainly don't pass that attitude onto your DCs.

Surely it depends on the holiday? Playing on a beach/in a pool is not going to teach them a lot but some holidays may.

The only time DS had time off for a holiday was a few days added onto half term to go with friends to Egypt (Cairo, museums, pyramids, etc not the beaches)

Taking children out of school, particularly if a lot of people do it, impacts on all the others in the class as the learning, no matter what it is, will be disjointed and difficult for all

sorry the DVDs comment was directed at the OP who wanted to take her children out for a holiday - the poster in question said "as for a work plan of what they'll be missing, if it's a load of DVD watching..."
Does anyone really think that in a 2 week period their DCs will do little else than watch a load of DVDs? And if so, something needs to be done about their school.

Apart from end of term, take your point. Surely that doesn't go on for 2 weeks though??

mmm 1:30 with a qualified early years teacher, or 1:2 with a qualified early years teacher? (following the eyfs curriculum)

1 more and 1 less to 10, working toward 20, or 1 or 2 more/less with numbers to 100, adding and taking away with numberrs to 20, doubles of 1-10, numberbonds of 10

reading red band books once/twice a week or reading turquoise and purple band books everyday?

physio/occupational therapy every other day or doing physio and occupational therapy everyday

guess who is taking their child out of school soon... and not told the head yet...

my mantra currently is ... not of statutory school age..... eek!

But AfC surely there can't be many family holidays that are equal to the teaching you should get from a varied timetable delivered by qualified, experienced teachers?? In which case teachers are hugely overpaid - why don't they just all take the kids on holiday?

Don't understand your post bes, sorry
(Maybe I should ahve paid more attention in school :o)

However I do agree that YR is less of an issue

have I killed my own, controversial, thread?

Stately The whole point is that there are very few holidays that are equal to good teaching.

I rather suspect the "they won't miss much" argument is just a self-justification rather than admit that the holiday is cheaper, etc. I also suspect that if we paid our contributions for health and education as we used them, rather than via national insurance, schools and healthcare would be valued more by the users.

How does the panic over getting into a "good" school at admission time turn into such dissilusion a few years later?

I think that is the nail on the head, you have such high hopes in reception having had a tour of the school, been talked to about all the lovely things they will do with your child, how safe and happy they will be at the school.
It's all bollox, we moved house to get into a school we were told would teach them a foreign language from year 1, what they meant was they would teach them to count from 1 - 10 in French in year 1 and that was it.
I'd have save £90k if I'd just bought Muzzy instead.

I wonder every day why I send my kids to school :(

I would home school them - but they all enjoy school so much.

So instead I spend weekends and holidays trying to teach them stuff (like reading and writing) that they should have been taught at school :(

I think it depends on how old they are (I don't think children should start school until at least six), but TBH I do think children get more out of holidays than a week at school. That's not to belittle their education, just that a holiday is such a magical thing for a young child. Regardless of the 'educational' value.

If it's a term time holiday or no holiday, then I think the former option is better than the latter.

I see your point SPB.

I've really changed my view on education since having my children. I used to think it was all about getting good grades, times tables, facts about ancient rome, spelling... etc. Going to grammar school added to this view of course.

But I don't see it like that anymore. I think it's more important to love learning, and that learning doesn't necessarily happen in school anyway - at least not what I see as learning. I like the John Holt quote "learning is not the product of teaching"

Sorry I'm waffling and my ideas are jumbled anyway, this whole thing is a massive change for me because I come from a very academic, exams-are-everything family.

I think it is easily possible to learn more on a holiday than at school, and due to the view I've mentioned, that doesn't necessarily criticise the teacher or particular school. Maybe it's just that holidays are an amazing educational opportunity compared to the school institution.

But then, as you probably guessed I am very pro homeschooling - haven't decided if we are going to though. But I certainly don't see school as the 'be all and end all' to my DCs education, not any more.

Waffle over now...

I think an awful lot of it is parental justification.

It can range from amusing to hilarious at how little they'll be missing at school...and just how 'much they'll learn' digging up the sand at Blackpool

Haven't red the other thread but if you are only taking your DC out for the last day of term then I would say it is true they will not miss much. Taking them out for longer then I wouldn't be so sure.

Disclaimer: I am the evil mother who insists her dd goes to school even if it is the last day of term.

As to holidays being educational, I guess that all depends on the holiday.

If they miss the last day of term they miss the fun stuffand saying 'goodbye' to everyone.

I have taught for years in inner London, and many children do not get a holiday. Ever. I have taken 16 yr olds on residential trips who have never left their part of London, never mind London itself. I think the benefit of family holidays on children's development is immense.

I think Stately has a point here (says she, desperately trying to reinvogorate the thread....). Many parents I know take children out of school for holidays, but mainly because holidays are cheaper in term time, not because they believe that children learn more on the beach at Magaluf. I personally think that doing this sends out the message that it is ok to disrespect the value of education, and also that it is OK to break rules, neither of which is acceptable IMO.

On the point of children benefiting more from a family holiday, this is nonsense, and confuses "learning" with "education". Yes, they may learn something, they may even learn a lot, but this is not "education" as such. Education is the process through which knowledge is imparted. Learning is simply the process of taking on board information and using it to change one's behaviour. Education is an activity designed by teachers and other specialists to impart knowledge, a great deal of which may not have any immediate relevance. Educating others is a skill, which is why teachers are paid to do it. Frank Furedi has written an excellent critique on this subject called "Wasted" and articulates this point far better than I seem to be doing.

WOuld it not make more sense for schools to pay parents to take their DCs away for 2 weeks then - with a list of acceptable destinations? They wouldn't need to pay staff for those 2 weeks so they can use the money saved there? If holidays really are that valuable?

I think a lot depends on what the holiday is and what the child is told.
I have seen one child in school taken out for a month, when the family went to Australia. At the age of 5, she knew where she was going, and when she came back, she could tell us about some of the animals found there, and she knew a bit about the way of life of the Aborigines. On a very basic level, she knew they used different money in Australia. Did she learn more on holiday than at school? Yes, because her parents made an effort to make sure she got something educational from it. That doesn't mean she didn't have fun on the beach while all her class were slaving in a maths lesson (!), but that they made an attempt to bring some element of learning into the holiday.
In the same class a little lad went on holiday to Spain during term time. On his return, he had no idea where he had been and he was unable to tell us anything that wasn't about the hotel and its swimming pool and beach. He didn't know that the people in Spain spoke a different language, or that they used different money. In his case, I don't think he did get more out of his week in Spain than he would have done from a week in school.

So I think it depends on how a parent approaches it - if the child comes back understanding a bit about where they have been (and they have seen different money, or heard a different language, or seen a slightly different way of life and talked it through with a parent) then I think that it can be an excellent addition to their learning. If they are taken off to sit on a beach for 10 days with no understanding of where they are or what is going on around them and no attempt to introduce them to the idea that people in different countries use different money or have a different way of life to their own, it's a bit of a waste and they'd be better off in school. It doesn't mean that you need to trek round every museum going, just little things like saying 'Wow, look, these are not like the coins we use at home, are they?' can make all the difference.

I should point out that as my DH is from New Zealand, we will probably be taking our dd out of school to go and visit his family as our long holiday does not coincide with theirs, so if we go during school holidays, all her cousins will be in school and I want her to spend as much time with her NZ family as possible. So we will go in January. But we will also be taking her to some of the Maori exhibitions, and I hope that although she will miss almost a month of school, that what she will learn about NZ, which is after all a big part of her heritage, will balance it out. And I will be talking to the teacher about things we can do to make sure she isn't adrift when we return, but I don't plan on making her sit and learn maths for an hour a day!!

Not sure I agree with you about your definition of 'education', biryani. As a parent whose children have had a mixture of state education (fantastic for one child, disastrous for another) and home ed, I believe that education is happening all the time and children learn through all kinds of experiences in all kinds of ways. This is just as much 'education' as a planned curriculum. It is certainly not only something that teachers can 'impart'.

DC2 (home educated) did very little formal maths when he was small, but loved mathematical games, stories and activities. It was the first subject he took at GCSE and he's now doing it as one of his A levels. He's getting good grades, so we must have done/be doing something right!

Having said that, I think if you choose to send your child to school and the school disapproves of taking holidays in term-time, you should respect that if possible.

Should also say that I absolutely believe a holiday can be a fantastic educational experience. However, if you choose to send your child to school there may be problems around taking them out during term-time - depending on the individual child and the school's approach.

Odd that these threads have come up just as I've applied for my first ever form to take the children away. I have already booked the flights after phoning the head to consult with him.
I am taking my four children Kosova to visit my parents in June. The only reason I can go is because someone else is paying for me and two of the children. When we realised my husband couldn't take time off (childcare) we also realised we would have to go in termtime as we couldn't afford the two extras fare in the holidays.
I discussed all this with the head and he agreed that as they are way ahead at school apart from dd who is still 4 there wasn't a huge worry for their education compared to what they could learn in a post war Muslim country with a completely didn't way of life to ours, not to mention seeing their Grandparents. (that sentence was far too long)
Yes we are going then because it's cheaper in termtime but we are not breaking the rules. I have applied to the head and it is at his discretion that we can take 8 days off school (I have arranged it over 2 inset days to lessen the amount of school missed) he agreed that it would be a valuable experience for them and that with a 99%+ attendance record there was no need to worry. I value their education highly which is why the consultation in the first place. I wanted to consider the Heads opinion not just apply for the time off.
Talk about assumptions, there seems to be a lot of these two threads.

Slightly off topic, but I am about to become a primary school teacher after three years of training and I am genuinely excited about it. I am well aware that the education system has its faults, but I didn't know parents disliked schools so much! Is it the teachers or the system? If it's the teachers, what can they do to stop you feeling so badly about them? I would hate to think that any parents of children in my class thought all I did was stick a DVD on - is that what I have to look forward to?