AIBU to think sending a child out of class should be a last resort?

[mamanda]

We have a child in Y8 at our local north london school which we recently discovered recruits teachers via a Russel Group scheme to cycle graduates through inner london schools. We've met lots of the teachers and they are enthusiastic, positive and committed to engaging the children etc. The school must find it very difficult to recruit so perhaps it seems like a perfect solution.

Our child is recently adopted and his behaviour goes from patchy to bad - we are working on this with him and with his teachers and things are getting better. The teachers give 3 warnings for behaviour (i.e. talking) and after warning no. 3 a security guard is summoned and the child is removed to the exit room. DS spends a LOT of time in the exit room where he does nothing - there are rumours the teacher is supposed to give them the classwork to do but this has never happened.

The teachers are great with the kids who 'want to learn' but everyone else gets sent out. Surely an experienced teacher would be able to control a bit of talking or messing around? These teachers just say stop it or I'll tell you to stop it again before giving up.

Surely at teacher training college they don't tell you to send children out if they're naughty?

I don't know what a Russel group scheme is and can't be arsed to google it.
My DD had a boy in her class last year who was always put onto the concentration station - a chair on its own facing the wall. He knew that if he misbehaved while he was there, he would be sent to the prinicpal. They didn't have an exit room whatever that it.
I don't think the teacher is BU to want a disruption removed from the class, IME it only takes one child to disrupt the whole lesson.

your school has a security guard?
sorry, that wasn't your point....having worked in schools a lot I sympathise a lot with teachers particularly new or relatively experienced ones. You say DS's behavious (congrats on your new son BTW) goes from patchy to "bad" but later sya its just talking and messing around. if it's the latter a teacher should be able to deal with it in class but remember it is highly unlikely DS is the only child whose behaviour isn't up to scratch. So multiply his behaiour by 6 or 10 and the teacher is on the verge of losing control by sheer weight of numbers. He/she owes it to the other children to provide a calm working atmosphere and removing the ringleader, or worst offenders, particularly if they are ignoring warnings is a perfectly good option. I do think DS should be given work to do in the exit room though!

Yanbu. Children with behaviour problems/sen all too often get sent out ... It's a teachers job to teach all children.

Unless he's seriously violent then they should be employing a variety of tactics to teach him .

As an experienced teacher, you have my sympathy. These new teacher training schemes are not the best.

I assume this is a Teach First type scheme? I wouldn't want to send my child to a school with a lot of Teach First trainees, as yes they have less experience. This doesn't sound like normal classroom management at any school I know, but then I don't live in central London. I also doubt it is just for "talking" maybe for totally disrupting the lesson and won't stop talking (but its probably worse than that).
I would contact parent partnership as your child is not receiving an education from what you say, if he is that disruptive then an action plan should be put in place to improve his behaviour and re-integrate him to the classroom.

Don't get me started on Teach First schemes!

Are you taking your son's word for it that he is being sent out really quickly? If it's constant, he should be being dealt with by his Head of Year. Ask for a meeting to support your son in improving his behaviour.

If your son is disruptive repeatedly despite warnings, he will be removed from the lesson.

Sounds like the teacher is following whole-school policy IMO. But yes they should have work in the exit room.

" It's a teachers job to teach all children. "

Quite. And even 'low level' disruption like a student persistently talking over the teacher stops that from happening.

If your DS spends a lot of time in the exit room and he is not being given additional support or you being given a proper explanation then I think you need to go in to speak to senior staff at the school to ask for one.

I wouldn't blame the teachers. If the rules are you get 3 chances to follow teacher instructions or you are out (so that the teacher can actually TEACH the other 29 children) then those are the rules which your DS should follow. Sounds quite clear to me.

I have a dd in yr 9 whose education is being seriously disrupted by a number of girls in her teaching group.....cue yet another meeting on Tuesday.
So I'm sorry- I have little sympathy. My dd is in tears at times at what they get away with, and that it takes 20 mins to settle the class before any teaching begins.

mummytime I think that must be it. We only heard about it when his form teacher mentioned it. His form teacher is very experienced and absolutely brilliant with him. WHen he's behaving badly in one particular class he gets that teacher to set work and then supervises him while he does it until he feels he's ready to return to that class.

We have quite regular meetings with his teachers. They say he is by no means the worst in the class and that he is not rude to them, but if there's any disruption going on, i.e. talking or at the other end of the scale, playing music on his mobile, jumping around, he is more often than not involved. They all seem to like him and say he has interesting things to say. Some of his marks are very good.

They have no authority - it's as if the children are there because they want to be there, if not there is a nice room full of lots of other naughty children to hang out with.

goodegg I don't take his word for anything

Things may be getting better partly because the teachers are calm and consistent in their application of the discipline policy in the school.
He's choosing to follow the path, hopefully with more input and support he will modify his behaviour before reaching the point of being sent out.
They should be providing something for him to do in the withdrawal room.
I'd be working on identifying the triggers for the unacceptable behaviour.
Why is he ignoring the teacher's warnings and what is he hoping to achieve?

Deaddei I do agree and we are working very hard on his behaviour. But I have to focus my concerns on him because he is 'ours' and he deserves an education and opportunities in life.

Captainbarnacle - Er, we have told him that! I do blame the teachers, they should be able to control a class within reasonable boundaries and only send children out when they've crossed a line.

If a teacher can't stop children talking, if what they want to do is teach interested children who enjoy learning, they should avoid n. london schools with over 50% sen. Authority comes with experience.

If it's happening a lot then the strategy isn't working and the school needs (with your support) to find one that will.
Otherwise your son isn't getting the education that he's entitled to.

Just because the 'three warnings and you're out' is normal policy, that doesnt' mean it's right for your son and perhaps he needs an individual behaviour policy that he can manage put into place.

That doesn't mean however that the education of all the rest of the class can be disrupted.

Is the SenCo involved in this?

congrats on your son.
Until i started teaching i did not fully realise how disruptive it can be to have some pupils constantly talking and refusing to be quiet. It is harder when you are less experienced, but I would still send students out of the room who refuse to be quiet whilst I am doing the talky bit - otherwise the remaining 29 students cannot hear the input from the teacher, or know what they are supposed to do. It is rare for me to have to do this, but in tougher schools it can be a very common issue, followed up by said pupil going "but i was only talking".

If the teacher is following whole school behaviour policy then he or she cannot be criticised for this - they may well be inexperienced, and quite possibly struggling with behaviour management, but if the school as a whole has decided on this form of dealing with persistent failure to follow instructions then the teachers should be using it - in a tough school it makes a mockery of any behaviour management policies if they are only used in a patchy fashion, or by some staff and not others.
He does however definately need some work to do when in removal - tbh i'm quite surprised they don't have a stock of text books down there for the students.

Goblinchild - he is torn between behaving (he is much happier when he is behaving well - I always know I'm going to get a call from the school when he's miserable in the evening) and fitting in with his peer group, in which he's definitely the odd one out.

Tell your DS to behave in class, and stop distrupting the ones that want to learn.

You're taking no ownership for your DS's behaviour. You know "his behaviour goes from patchy to bad" and yet you just blame the teacher.

It's a bit ironic that you're saying you don't think he is getting any work to do in the exit room. If he stayed in the class and behaved he would have work to do. I don't think he will magically do the work (even if he was given it) in the exit room if he is misbehaving.

If the kids "want to learn" in the school the teachers are great are they. Well isn't your solution staring you in the face.

Good that he wants to behave, that's a fantastic first step. So he needs support and help to manage that a bit better, and for his successes to be noticed and appreciated in some small way, targeted praise or taking a lead in some activity. Whatever works for him.
Changing a behaviour pattern is usually a long-term plan, but the fact he's happier when not in trouble is key.

NannyOg I don't know what SenCo is, will google. He doesn't have SEN though, his marks are pretty good when we can get him to do the work.

Loshad interesting to get your view. I think the school has defined a behaviour policy that supports these great but inexperienced teachers, rather than have them fit in with what is actually needed.

The school has an ofsted outstanding, yet a massive proportion of their pupils leave with no qualifications.

NannyOgg is right - if the strategy isn't working for your child, then the school have a responsibility to manage a strategy for him which will.

Fine - continue to blame the teachers. Have you tried to imagine what it must be like to teach a class with 20 kids who are keen and want to learn, and half a dozen who keep shouting out, playing music on mobile phones, dancing and totally ignoring warnings? What else do you expect them to do apart from follow the whole school discipline policy? Yes, there will be exceptions to the staff members who just blindly follow the policy (such as DS form tutor) but in a large, inner city school you will find a broad spectrum of staff.

Sounds like the school policy isn't working for your child - your problem is with senior staff in the school and not the average teacher who is just following orders and trying to make all the classes have a consistent behaviour policy which should be clearly understood by most 13 yr olds by now.

As the parent of children who know how to behave, I am only too glad that kids who disrupt others who are trying to learn are removed.

Now ds, you have all these issues, and having what I am assuming behaviour disorders due to your adoption background!, You must do what Journey says and "behave"!, because all your own needs, must be put under the carpet, as honestly my son, think of the other children and leave your troubles at the door, its better for the other children, just not your own needs son

Your son needs assessed by senco, Im assuming you still have a social worker OP, if so contact them, they will be able to help assist further with behavioral strategies, and as for the school, Id be saying NO more "exit rooms" this is singling him out, and is evidently now working, contact the LEA and the OFSTED, and also the board of governors!. Id even if you think get child psychologists involved, as there may be a deeper root that is troubling him.

Journey I'm at your post. Not all children have had the same start in life. I think I've pointed out that we work closely with the school and have made big improvements to his behaviour. Oh, that it were so simple as just to 'tell him to behave'. Goblinchild is right that it's a long-term process. Last year, before he came to us, he refused school for 12 weeks of Y7.

I only blame the teachers for their bit, it's frustrating to get a call from one of his teachers saying they had to send him out of class for talking and can we please follow-through with a home punishment. Of course we do (he loses computer time/earns less computer time as well as talking to him about what's going on etc.) but it's as if we're doing the discipline rather than just supporting them.

senco, is not just for children who have SEN, they are for children whose needs are not being met in the classroom, and for what ever reason need additional support.

This isn't a case where blamed lies solely on the school.the child/the parents etc... the whole circumstances need to be looked at, and all the adults involved, working in support of each other, for the benefit of the child.

I think it depends. If you have an isolation unit then I think it's fine to use it IF the child is given work to get on with there. But to be consistently left there doing nothing is not okay.

I only teach up to year 8 so your son would be the oldest I'd ever deal with and we don't have an isolation area. Personally, I try to avoid simply sending children out of the room (mainly because I have an awful tendency to forget they're there!) with two exceptions:

1. If I am becoming genuinely angry and losing control (once your discipline stops being acting you're in trouble) and
2. If the child has lost control and just needs a brief moment to calm down before coming back into the classroom.

I wouldn't (intentionally!) leave a child out of the room for more than 5 minutes because they're not learning anything.
Having said that, I don't teach in a school with severe behavioural issues.

If I was you I'd move house to an area whether he will fit in with his peers if he is well behaved and remove that dilemma from his shoulders.