AIBU to think sending a child out of class should be a last resort?

[mamanda]

We have a child in Y8 at our local north london school which we recently discovered recruits teachers via a Russel Group scheme to cycle graduates through inner london schools. We've met lots of the teachers and they are enthusiastic, positive and committed to engaging the children etc. The school must find it very difficult to recruit so perhaps it seems like a perfect solution.

Our child is recently adopted and his behaviour goes from patchy to bad - we are working on this with him and with his teachers and things are getting better. The teachers give 3 warnings for behaviour (i.e. talking) and after warning no. 3 a security guard is summoned and the child is removed to the exit room. DS spends a LOT of time in the exit room where he does nothing - there are rumours the teacher is supposed to give them the classwork to do but this has never happened.

The teachers are great with the kids who 'want to learn' but everyone else gets sent out. Surely an experienced teacher would be able to control a bit of talking or messing around? These teachers just say stop it or I'll tell you to stop it again before giving up.

Surely at teacher training college they don't tell you to send children out if they're naughty?

Manicinsomniac I absolutely agree - that is absolutely the point of my post. It's a valid option, but I disagree with the schools 1, 2, 3 go policy.

Wotnochocs will you consider fostering? Parents like you can make a huge different with children who've not had the benefit of good clear boundaries. Or even any parents at all.

Ishani - that's exactly what we're doing over the summer.

Playing music on his mobile = you take away mobile for school hours. Action and consequence. Not rocket science. Why does he need a mobile in lessons?

That sounds like the answer, we've had to do it twice but it does work and I think you'll all be very glad you did :)

Well if he gets 3 warnings and still plays up, it really is better that he gets removed so that the kids who want to learn, actually get the chance to.

There's nothing worse than being constantly distracted when you're trying to concentrate on anything.

Mamanda - that's right. You disagree with the school policy. Stop blaming class teachers! If they are phoning you up to let you know about the behaviour and what was done at the school as a short term solution, then they are supporting you. You have to support them - like you are doing - by talking with DS about it. But if this keeps on happening then it is a whole school (or SEN or senior staff) issue.

Sounds like the 1 2 3 is clearly followed through by the class teachers, even if classwork in the unit is sporadic - try sending a child out then getting together a package of written work for them whilst leaving your class... the exit unit should have packs of work all ready prepared.

The issue is that this 1 2 3 doesn't work for your child. Phone the school. Ask to speak with senior staff about strategies. Your DS does have special educational needs if he cannot follow teacher instructions. This needs to be addressed and communicated to classteachers with appropriate strategies to assist and support them too.

Good post captain

Also re the work thing...imagine how much teaching the rest of the class would have missed out on while the teacher has had to speak to a pupil 3 times, call security, have them removed and then sort out a work package/exercise.

Even worse if there is more than one disruptive pupil in the class.

That's the way it works at our school, without the 'security guard' though - what you have to remember is the other 29 students in the class who cannot learn because the teacher's heavily involved in the behaviour of your one child - it is not fair on them - so the child, given 3 warnings to settle down should listen - or they leave.

it's the maximum benefit to the class!

I'd also point out that your child almost definitely does have SEN (Special Educational Needs) - I would imagine he has rather significant BESD (Behaviour, Emotional, Social needs) that should be addressed - he has had a difficult background, was a school refuser - he needs support

also the 'exit room' should have work ready for them to do

talking is not just chitter chat too - it is disruptive, can be rude / cheeky / swearing - can be designed to cause maximum disturbance

a child told to stop talking in a class should just shut up

told again and again - with a minimum 10 second wait in between

and then what? what do you want to happen at that point / what do you think would work bearing in mind 29 other kids and a whole lesson plan

Xales - we did of course.

I sometimes think instead of the old "it's not rocket science" cliche, people should say, "oh, it's not like taking on someone else's 13 year old"

But you have taken him on and good luck with that.

The school do sound quite supportive, perhaps they just need some one on one time with you, to sort out a behaviour plan with the SENCO?

But for teachers in this school, their class is what it is and they need to be able to deal with it, or leave it to more experienced teachers. As a teacher you can't pick and choose which pupils you teach. Or can you?

THey are lovely young people, but they have not had teacher training. Teach first graduates are supposed to teach in difficult schools, yet they seem a little bit like they haven't done their homework.

Imparting facts is surely the easy part of the job.

Activate that's the issue. Surely it's about classroom presence, a pithy and well-directed remark, making sure the usual suspects aren't huddled together, ensuring the alternative to being in class is unattractive (a nice sunny room full of your mates and a 'supervisor' rather than an annoying teacher telling you to get on with your work), not taking any crap, etc.

His form teacher's approach is devastatingly effective, and interestingly, this is the only teacher who has his total respect, and the only one for whom he gets consistently high marks. Unsurprisingly, seeing as he has years of experience.

If this is a regular occurrence then there should be measures being implicated to deal with your son's behaviour, ie coping strategies for both him and the staff- you don't say whether this is happening but if not I would request a meeting with the appropriate staff to arrange this. But in the meantime there is only a certain amount of things that can be tried in the classroom (warnings, change of seat, threat of loss of free time) before the whole class learning has to take priority. Dealing with one person's behaviour can be incredibly time-consuming and de-motivating for the rest of the class, or can indeed encourage others to join in. So the teacher isn't being unreasonable to put the needs of the rest of the class first by removing your son at the time as long as other things have been tried first, but you need to ensure that the school is working with you to address the behaviour issues. You also need to discuss this with the school and find out what is really happening in class as chances are you don't have the full picture if you are only asking your son.

But for teachers in this school, their class is what it is and they need to be able to deal with it, or leave it to more experienced teachers. As a teacher you can't pick and choose which pupils you teach. Or can you?

But they are dealing with it wonderfully imo. Three warnings and then out so the rest of the class can do what they are there for and that is learn

Every child has a right to be educated in a calm, safe atmosphere. Why are you placing the blam firmly on 'inexperience' when they seem to be doing just what a teacher should?

If children continue to disrupt my lessons they will be removed. I tend to follow the following

First time you speak out of turn is a warning, name on my little reminder board.
Second time you speak out of turn, note in planner.
Third time break time detention with lines.
Fourth time lunch tie detention with a punishment task or work.
Fifth time removed from my room and a subject afterschool detention which will involve a letter home. He would be sent with work and the school would set a school punishment on top of mine.

I am not a new teacher, not an old one either - an experienced head of department with behaviour responsibility. So far this year I have never got past the odd break time detention and I think that was only once. I don't teach in an inner city school but I do teach in a comprehensive with some fairly challenging bottom sets. One of my classes - 2/3 are classed as having emotional or behaviour difficulties.

Your son would not miss out on work by being removed from my class as he would have the lesson on his own after school with me.

The teacher should be confiscating his mobile for parental collection. If any of my children had their mobile confiscated more than once I woudl take their mobile off them. Mobile phones are a luxury to be earned not a right.

Children repeatedly talking in class, mucking about, playing on mobiles rob other children of their right to an education.

You need to go into the school and meet with your child's head of year and if possible whoever is in charge of the SEN department, there may be someone who specialises in behaviour issues within SEN.

I agree that if this is happening regularly there needs to be a long term plan in place.

I have to say, faced with one child who is disrupting the whole class missing out or that child missing out by being removed, I think they are making the right choice.

Your child will eventually learn that if he wants to be with his friends and achieve in school then there are boundaries which he needs to stick to. Changing or bending the rules is the worst thing they could do.

If the teacher was making your son misbehave (like for example there was a trigger for him which they hit constantly) that would be one thing. But it sounds like these teachers are simply doing their jobs and following school protocol.

As a school behaviour policy it seems fine to me.

If it is not working for your son, then I think the first step needs to be finding out why. Is he desperate for the teachers attention? Does he just forget and get distracted? You need to meet with the SENCO and discuss your child's behaviour issues and get them to implement a strategy for dealing with it. It could well be that a policy of ignoring him when he is not following rules, or giving an increased number of warnings, may be more beneficial than following the school policy as written - depending on WHY he is not following the rules.

Honestly, though, behaviour management is the hardest part of teaching, and even after many years teachers don't always get it right. Even teachers who go through normal teacher training find it challenging - so I wouldn't be so quick to blame it on the training scheme. Your son is going to meet a number of new teachers whilst he is being educated, that is just the way it is.

mamanda - you might be better off posting in "adoption" for some more practical ideas to eal with his behaviour as not many people will have the experience to deal with/understand the kind of issues that can come with adoption especially an older child adoption.

Your school certianly doesn't sound on the surface like they have any experience or understanding of it at all. Though I agree with teh commetns about confiscating his phone if he uses it during lessons at all.

DS is only in reception and his school have a policy of including all adopted children in a SEAL (is that the right desciption) group as they are well aware of the additional needs that an adoption can bring even with childrne like DS who was adopted at 1yr. His behaviour may not be considered to be SEN but the school should be able to discuss with you and perhaps his social worker what kind of discipline works best for him. It is tricky though if they have a blanket policy of 123 out because it doesn't sound like they will be very flexible.

Do you have difficulty managing his behaviour yourself or is it a particular problme at school? I assume he moved schools when he was placed with you, so he is dealing with that as well?

Your son has three warnings before being removed from the class so that the other 29 children can learn. You say also that the teachers have no problems dealing with the children who want to learn. I do not understand why other children should be prevented from learning because your son, notwithstanding his pre-adoption baggage, cannot at the very least sit still and be quiet for relatively short periods of time to allow them to do so. Either he learns to behave or he should be permanently removed from the school. I wonder how the parents of the children who want to learn feel about him.

We sent our daughter to a school with a wonderful reputation. We have struggled through years 7 and 8 because of changes to the admissions procedures and a change in head which have diluted standards of behaviour and expectations significantly. There is a significant minority of 11-13 girls that is anti-social, intimidating and disruptive. The school tells us it is a London Comprehensive and has children from very different backgrounds and that there are no real problems with bullying or behaviour. Well, sorry chaps, fortunately we can afford a choice and our dd will not be returning for Y9. That is a direct result of uncontrolled and disrespectful behaviour from children who are vile and unteachable. It has nothing to do with the commitment of many of the staff who for years were wonderful teachers in a wonderful environment that has been destroyed by the incumbent governing body. Sadly we have watched our daughter suffer in this environment and although she hasn't actually been bullied the stress she has been put under when friends have and by the fact that she has taken such care to stay below the parapet is unspeakable to the point of harming herself.

So sorry OP, the boy needs to learn and learn fast before causing significant upset for both his peers and his teachers - he is not the only boy that matters. You have taken on a tough challenge but perhaps a normal school is not the place for him unless you are happy for him to spoil the life chances and well being of others.

desperately you are, to my mind, a proper teacher because you aim to teach your whole class and are prepared to do what is necessary to achieve that.

The deputy head with responsibility for y8 behaviour emails me regularly, every day when we're having a more eventful time, reporting both the good and the bad so we can respond appropriately. For weeks he behaves really well - he's a great kid who reads voraciously, draws intricate pictures and plays very good scrabble, but he's trying to fit in and please everybody and if mucking around in class gets him a laugh or whatever then he does it. He shouldn't but he does. THis is not uncommon behaviour and a teacher should be able to rein it in. These teachers are out of their depth.

onceamai I'm sorry you have such a hard time with your DD's school. Surely, however, you are talking about a drop in discipline and control at her school, which is my complaint too. I want calm classrooms full of busy, concentrating children too! I don't know what you mean about changes in admissions - was it a selective school previously?

There are a lot of children at this school in a holding pattern between classroom and exit room. He is about halfway in the class. He's in top set for some subjects and this is a massive help with his behaviour, because expectations in the class are higher.

Kewcumber - it was an interfamily adoption when his parents died. His behaviour at home is good unless school is going badly, then he's sad and withdrawn.

Mamanda - I think you are approaching this problem in a way which is antagonistic and presumptuous and quite narrowminded. You have not asked how you can resolve the issues your DS has at school - you have come on here to blame inexperienced teachers for sending your son out of class after he has failed to follow the school behaviour code.

Yes, graduate teachers are learning - but this happens in schools up and down the country. When I did my PGCE I was in a classroom teaching within a few weeks, and after 3 months I was in school full time. It is not just new teachers who find behaviour issues in their classroom - without the support of senior staff and structure in school then teachers of all ages and experiences will find problems.

You should not dismiss young teachers as having no authority and that they shouldn't teach in a N London school if they cannot rule with a rod of iron. Good schools have a broad mix of ages and experience in their staff - that is how staff improve and learn from each other.

If you go into meetings with the school staff and want to blame young teachers for all your DS problems, then I fear you are going down the wrong road. The school are not going to change their staffing structure because of it. Support needs to be given to your DS from other avenues, and/or the young staff need to be given appropriate strategies and all do the same thing with your DS - as it is consistency which IMO is the key to good school discipline.

Having just read the OP and not replies...

The teacher may not be experienced and everyone has to start somewhere.

The school should have a discipline policy and a set of procedures to follow. If a child is disrupting the learning of others, and not taking the hint with low levels of discipline, then it is not rocket science that they may have to be removed from the lesson.

It sounds like the in class discipline in this school amounts to three strikes and you're out. That doesn't sound too bad. There are other things teachers can do - take away house points, detention, isolation within the class, etc, but these things depend on the culture of the school.

If a child has to be removed from a lesson, then things have gone pretty far and parents should be called in and behaviour contracts agreed. The child should be on the radar screen of senior management.

In the OP's situation, the child should be helped in the most caring way, and discipline should not be done in a punishing way. It is wrong to put him in an isolation room without helping him to improve his behaviour or give him an opportunity to work.