AIBU to think sending a child out of class should be a last resort?

[mamanda]

We have a child in Y8 at our local north london school which we recently discovered recruits teachers via a Russel Group scheme to cycle graduates through inner london schools. We've met lots of the teachers and they are enthusiastic, positive and committed to engaging the children etc. The school must find it very difficult to recruit so perhaps it seems like a perfect solution.

Our child is recently adopted and his behaviour goes from patchy to bad - we are working on this with him and with his teachers and things are getting better. The teachers give 3 warnings for behaviour (i.e. talking) and after warning no. 3 a security guard is summoned and the child is removed to the exit room. DS spends a LOT of time in the exit room where he does nothing - there are rumours the teacher is supposed to give them the classwork to do but this has never happened.

The teachers are great with the kids who 'want to learn' but everyone else gets sent out. Surely an experienced teacher would be able to control a bit of talking or messing around? These teachers just say stop it or I'll tell you to stop it again before giving up.

Surely at teacher training college they don't tell you to send children out if they're naughty?

OP here. I would like to stress that he is not showing appalling behaviour. If he was, it would be easy to understand teachers sending him out and I would agree and move ahead with a new plan. What I'm saying is, at this school, they have a policy of sending children to the exit room after their third warning - they just call the big guy and he comes to get them. This means a lot of children in the exit room, missing a class, for low-level disruption. I'm not saying low-level disruption doesn't have a major impact on the learning of the rest of the class or that it is in some way OK. It must be dealt with, whoever causes it, regardless of their circumstances, with clear boundaries (as the teachers on this thread rightly say).

But many of the teachers can deal with him, and say he's a happy, enthusiastic and makes an interesting contribution to the class, once he's settled down. The teachers who consistently send him to the exit room are the very inexperienced ones who are faced with a big crowd of disruptive children (ours being mild in comparison with many of the others) and don't have

It's SO frustrating because he's trying really hard to improve and he can do the work fairly easily. He does behave badly, and believe me we are committed to changing that, but he's not swearing or throwing things, he's acting up to his friends. He has been brought up in a very liberal, hippy sort of home but he has basic respect.

I want him build his self-esteem (at least partly) through doing well at school and by teaching him it's not stupid to be clever. Whatever the teacher's side of the story, that's the job I have to do. This was not a planned adoption, we have taken him in from the broader family as he is an orphan.

I do agree teachers shouldn't have to do crowd control, but schools must find a way to deal with the ones that aren't perfect. The exit room system in this school is NOT working.

I'm grateful for all your individual comments and will reread this thread when the baby's in bed.

Yes - but he is 13 yrs old and knows how to behave. He shows you good behaviour in a lot of other classes. Therefore it is his responsibility to behave in class, regardless of who is the teacher.

We can find reasons to explain and understand why he behaves as he does. However the bottom line is not just that staff are inexperienced, but that if he does not have behavioural needs elsewhere in the school, then these reasons become mere excuses.

It sounds like he knows what he is doing - that is why it is frustrating you. Yes, it would be great if he could be taught by the staff who are experienced and handle him well all the time - but it would also be great if he could understand that all staff deserve respect and co-operation, not just the ones he has a good relationship with.

If he is picking and choosing where he disrupts, then the issue is not necessarily emotional and behavioural but an issue of self discipline and responsibility.

Is it peer pressure? Does he need more support in not being a sheep and following the poor behaviour of his friends?

Everything you say is perfectly true, I agree completely - we are very clear about how we would like him to behave. We're just not there yet. He has also been treated as 'special' all his life and so he feels being an orphan is a bit of a get out of jail free card. We don't uphold this.

At the moment he's on permanent report so a 1 or a 2 counts against his reward or knocks off computer time. This encourages him to stay in line in class. He usually manages to mess up a few times a week though, so it would be great if the school could manage to organise the exit room so it was actually a punishment. I have told them if they give me the work I will happily make him do it in the evening.

I want him in a more traditional school where discipline is not so much of an issue that they need draconian measures across the board, which is why we're moving out of London.

Cross-posted. Peer pressure is 90% of it. And there are some very naughty boys in his class. HOw could I give him that support? I've obviously tried talking to him about it.

OP, if as you say, many teachers can deal with him, then your boy is choosing whom to obey. He is responsible for his own behaviour. The rules are there for teachers to use to ensure consistency of discipline.

If he's playing up for his mates, could you request he's not allowed to sit with them, and have up at the front of the class?

You sound like a great parent- really, you do. Perhaps you're correct and it isn't the right school for him. If this school is only temporary, then just keep being consistent and doing what you are doing: reinforce what the school report says, praise everything he does which is great. Try not to let him go to school with a chip on his shoulder or think he's a special case like that.

You cannot change a whole school behaviour policy by yourself - you just have to work with it.

Regarding peer pressure - if there was a simple answer to your question it would be worth it's weight in gold. This is why teenagers are known as challenging!

But many of the teachers can deal with him, and say he's a happy, enthusiastic and makes an interesting contribution to the class, once he's settled down. The teachers who consistently send him to the exit room are the very inexperienced ones who are faced with a big crowd of disruptive children

It sounds to me like he's acting up for the teachers in the lessons he doesn't like.

He also proves he can knuckle down and stop disrupting the other kid's peace and quiet when he wants to.

I have come across a few Teach First colleagues and they have been very good. An "old fashioned" PGCE does not confer any great advantage - a few lectures on the theory of behaviour management that have never once in my 12 or so years of teaching been useful and some weeks spent as a 21-22 year old trying to cope with extremely challenging 15 year olds! OP I agree with the comment by worraliability if your son is well behaved with some teachers then he clearly CAN do it and provided they are following the school behaviour policy the younger ones are not doing anything wrong. Having said that, they could ask the ones who copw well with him for guidance but ultimately, if you are a young female teacher you cannot morph into middle aged man if that is what commands respect

any kid should be given a warning then sent out to do work outside. what right does any one child have to ruin the education of the majority?

he should really just behave for all the teachers experienced or not and also in subject areas he doesn't like. he is responsible for his own behaviour and has to take the punishment otherwise.

OP, a couple of things strike me from your recent posts.

Firstly, I think your definition of appalling behaviour and the schools may differ somewhat. If your DS is on permanent report, then that means his behaviour has been appalling. I think you might be guilty of putting the blame on the teacher, when it really rests with your son. Given that he is capable of behaving when he wants to, this issue is sounding like a choice, rather than a particular sen.

Low level disruption in classroom has a huge effect on a teachers ability to do their job. Perhaps the school have introduced this policy as a means of stamping it out before it escalates. I know your child has had a tough time and naturally, you want to think the best of him, but I think you'd do better to support rather than criticise what the school are trying to achieve. They are not going to change it because you feel your son is being hard done by, although I agree that he needs to be educated during his time out, rather than left to his own devices.

I worked in a school which, for want of a better word, could be described as rough. The senior management team had a zero tolerance policy. Good manners were not just expected, but demanded, to the point where female teachers were addressed as 'ma'am', rather than Miss/Mrs X. It was the only way the staff could keep control and it worked.

The other thing which strikes me is that you are expecting the move from London to result in a much better school for your child. This won't necessarily be the case. You will get difficult and disruptive pupils everywhere and you really are much better off with a senior management team who take a tough approach, than one which is not so 'draconian' but ineffective.

OP, the fact that your ds can behave , suggests that he knows what he is doing and is basically taking advantage of the fact that the teachers are young and inexperienced. Why should the schools have to accomodate children who want to muck around in class.?
When i watched 'Jamie's Dream School' many of the children blamed the teacher's lack of support for their failure, rather than admit that they didn't achieve at school because they were lazy.

Surely it's about classroom presence, a pithy and well-directed remark,

not always alowed or wise depending on the child and often frowned upon by management and parents.

making sure the usual suspects aren't huddled together

Pupils that have been separated will often talk loudly (shout) across the classroom.

ensuring the alternative to being in class is unattractive (a nice sunny room full of your mates and a 'supervisor' rather than an annoying teacher telling you to get on with your work)

sounds like the school has gotten this wrong.

not taking any crap, etc.

if the Teachers took no crap your son wouldn't get 3 chances.

I hope that the new school is more suited to your ds but 1 warning then removal from the classroom isn't draconian let alone 3 warnings which sounds extremely soft for a yr 8.

I'm always a bit wary of time out/ exit room type strategies as a global poliy for unwanted behaviour because it can actually reinforce/reward some behaviours. For example, if your son gets stressed when he doesn't understand certain tasks or loses concentration easily and gets bored then being sent out of the classroom may be exactly what he would like at that moment because it removes him from a stressful situation.

If he is happier when he is considered to be behaving well then it's probably reasonable to assume that sometimes the stress involved in conforming to that is greater for him than the stress of the consequences for bad behaviour. That is exactly why those kind of policies are only truely behaviour management strategies if an effort is made by the adults around the child to understand what the meaning of his particular behaviours are, and the response tailored appropriately.

The difficulty is, as has been pointed out, that this individualised approach is not practical from the staff's point of view. To some extent, they have to go with "the greatest good for the greatest number".

However, your job - I agree with you - is to advocate for the best arrangement for your son within the context of the realities of a school system and the staff should be amenable to working with you on this. good Luck!

Karma thanks for your post. Firstly, he's on permanent report at our request because we agreed with his form teacher that it was working well. He liked the fact that he could come home and show off his 5s and 4s and, in conjunction with teh school, he gets a reward at the end of the week. None of us see his report card as a punishment now, just a way of showing what he can do.

I'm under absolutely no illusions about his behaviour. I can be very objective about it because I didn't bring him up. One of the biggest issues we have is he never ever tells the truth if he can help it - we've had a lot of talks about it. If he tells me something about school I offer to check with them what really happened. His reaction usually resolves things! We also have an agreement that if his form teacher says it happened we'll just say it did, because he trusts him.

Forehead I believe teachers should teach the children sat in front of them to the best of their abilities and have the support they need to do so.

I will read through these posts again. thanks for yours Ignatz, I think you've got a lot of insight into his behaviour cycle.

Mamanda, most teachers do teach to the besy of their ability, but are not allowed to do so because of the behaviour of some students.
My friend is a fantastic teacher, but she is now leaving the profession because
she is unable to cope with the behaviour of the students . She spent more time controlling the bahaviour of certain students and was so fed up , that she
frequently kicked students out of the class. Your dh has to learn how to behave, it is as simple as that.

Sorry ds

FGS forehead, you think I don't know that! You think I don't spend half my life working out ways to get him to see it too? He's not a robot I can reprogramme, he's a little boy who lost both his parents and is trying to fit in in a new school in a new city with a new family. Have a heart woman.

I have not taught in the UK but have taught abroad ages 4-17.
I have had to send studets out of the room because otherwise a lesson would not have been possible. Teachers have very few powers over the kids nowdays and the kids know that. One child can cause a lot of disruption,sometimes to the point of a teacher not being able to deliver any of the lesson. I didnt have a strict curriculum to follow like teachers to over here or have the same pressure on me to perform and deliver like teachers do over here either.
On the other than sending a child out time and time again when nothing else is done to try and stop the behaviour is not going to stop the cycle. It must be very difficult for you as parents to watch it happen. He is missing out on his education and I imagine in a situation like yours it can be very difficult to know how to tread and how to approach his actions.
He needs structure and boundries - thats how kids feel safe and loved. TBH I would have thought he needs something more than being sent out. We would have sent to the headmaster and trembling outside his office because we knew there would consequences. Not following through on consequences for actions is just as bad as saying 'it's ok to do what you are doing'