AIBU to think sending a child out of class should be a last resort?

[mamanda]

We have a child in Y8 at our local north london school which we recently discovered recruits teachers via a Russel Group scheme to cycle graduates through inner london schools. We've met lots of the teachers and they are enthusiastic, positive and committed to engaging the children etc. The school must find it very difficult to recruit so perhaps it seems like a perfect solution.

Our child is recently adopted and his behaviour goes from patchy to bad - we are working on this with him and with his teachers and things are getting better. The teachers give 3 warnings for behaviour (i.e. talking) and after warning no. 3 a security guard is summoned and the child is removed to the exit room. DS spends a LOT of time in the exit room where he does nothing - there are rumours the teacher is supposed to give them the classwork to do but this has never happened.

The teachers are great with the kids who 'want to learn' but everyone else gets sent out. Surely an experienced teacher would be able to control a bit of talking or messing around? These teachers just say stop it or I'll tell you to stop it again before giving up.

Surely at teacher training college they don't tell you to send children out if they're naughty?

Most kids muck about once in a while which doesnt warrant informing the parents. If the Deputy Head is emailing you daily with regard to his behaviour then you're talking pretty serious disruption. I think you should support the school in their policy, it seems fair enough to me and quite important, fair enough to the other children who do not want their classes constantly disrupted.

Captainbarnacle, i think there is too high a proportion of teachers in the school who have insufficient classroom training. I don't really think that's being narrow-minded is it? You wouldn't run a company with a whole load of recent graduates.

We approach the situation by applying as much common sense, kindness and rules as we can. I liaise daily with the school, am always available to speak, listen and discuss his behaviour and by doing this we're making progress. If his behaviour was awful, if he was 'vile and unteachable' as someone mentioned above, then I would be considering other options. None of his teachers describe him as being anything other than a bit lazy and quick to chat and play up. Hardly borstal material.

If the respect I have for the help the school has given us over the past six months (6 months!) hasn't come through in this thread then it should have done. But DS is still falling behind academically because there is a lack of control in the classes because the teachers are not equipped with strategies other than exiting.

You did a PGCE. Now here I'm sure I am being very presumptuous, but when they teach classroom discipline I imagine they are pragmatic that new teachers will have to send some children out in the early years, but I doubt it's put forward as a good or default way of controlling a class.

Trifle the deputy head (there are about 10 of them) takes a special interest in him, and in us, because of what we're trying to achieve. We have had several meetings with him and the HOY - all requested by us, not the school (apart from one when he bunked a class). He doesn't email us because he's so awful, but because he sees how much we want to make it better. In a school where unfortunately many parents don't seem to care very much, they are happy to put in the effort where it has a good chance of being rewarded.

I think the fairest approach is the one described by the teacher above who controls a class with incremental sanctions without just removing all the 'undesirables' at the beginning.

Mamanda - TBH it doesn't matter what I was taught on my PGCE in terms of behaviour. If the school behaviour policy is to call for assistance on the '3rd strike' and talking out of turn is classed as one of those 'chances' then as a classroom teacher that is the code I must follow.

If you have a problem with a company, you don't just march in to the senior management and tell them how their staffing structure is all wrong - you ask pertinent questions and expect educated answers. You will get nowhere with the overwhelming attitude that they have staffed their school incorrectly.

If I was in an interview for a classroom teaching job and asked about discipline, I think the correct response is that I would follow the whole school behaviour code. That is what these young teachers are doing. You cannot blame them for it.

To be honest when desperately (the teacher above) posted that it's fifth time and out, I was going to say that as a parent I would be extremely angry if it took that many warnings to remove a disruptive child from my son's class.

Then she mentioned she's not in an inner city school and has very few children with problems.

If your son's school feels the need for a Security Guard, there must be a fair few disruptive kids there. I for one, would be glad of the 3 strike rule they have.

Sorry, but you do seem to be placing the blame on the teachers and not your son..who whilst he has obvious problems, really does need to keep his behaviour in check or suffer the consequences.

If my DC has a disruptive DC in the class, who is preventing the teacher giving her full attention to the lesson, I would want the DC removed. They need to have the staffing to deal with the removed DC- but they need to be removed. The quiet majority have the right to learn in peace.

OP if your son refused to listen in my class despite my warnings they would be removed, every lesson if needed until they behaved. My approach is not that different to the one in your school. I guess I have five strikes and you are out. I agree though that a school needs a good mixture of staff.

I sympathise. You are not parenting a 'normal' child - you're parenting a child who has suffered loss, grief and trauma and what works for normal children will often not work with adopted children.

I have three adopted children two of whom manage successfully in mainstream and one who simply cannot cope with the noise, the chaos and the sheer numbers. It terrifies him. My son is now in a special unit with 7 pupils per 1 teacher and 1 TA and it suits him so much better. He's learning and coping.

Adopted children frequently are unable to sustain a mainstream education - and even when you have teacher trained in working with traumatised children it can still stand or fall depending on the skill of the teacher and his or her ability to put into practice strategies that are known to work.

Sorry I haven't read all the thread so apologies if I'm repeating things. There are strategies that can help - I suggest the Louise Bomber book - Inside I'm Hurting, additionally there's an NCB leaflet and a Family Future Leaflet - Can't do, Won't do.

Would also suggest that you have a look at the Adoption UK forum - where an awful lot of adopters are currently struggling with their children's education.

OP: I don't know what you expect the teachers to do. Your post makes it clear that the teacher gives your DS 3 warnings so she is not "just removing all the 'undesirables' at the beginning". The warnings are your DS's chance to put things right but he isn't. What should s/he do?

I write as a teacher with 20 years experience. I have a year 10 class where 10 pupils are extremely chatty- take a long time to stop so I can explain the lesson and are seriously impacting on those who want to work.

In genuine desperation I ask you: what should I do? I have set detentions; phoned parents etc. Is it not better for the majority if those who want to work are given the chance to do it? BTW I am about the security guards.

I realise that your DS needs useful work to do when he has been withdrawn from the classroom. I think you should be pursuing this and seeing what other support is available within the school rather than criticising his teacher.

I agree worrall. You have to fit your discipline to your setting. We do have an issue with kids forever talking, however as I said most of our students only need to be told once or twice and then they settle down and work.

If in Year 8 I assume he is, or nearly is a teenager, who has only recently been adopted.
I'm shocked the teacher's only response to his eratic behaviour is to send him out of class. To spend hours isolated in a room with nothing to do! Is there not some sort of pastoral support system offered at the school?

FGS, stop blaming teachers. If a child is disruptive, he should be sent out after ONE warning.
The teacher owes this to the children and the parents of the well behaved kids.

I wasn't blaming the teacher - although in my experience some are more empathetic than others. I have a child who is very much like the OPs'. He was placed with me as a baby but had a very disrupted start to life, birth parents who smoked, drank, abused drugs etc and this affected his brain development. His brain (as, I suspect the OP's) is wired differently and the disciplinary methods which work with a non-traumatised child very often won't work with a child who has been neglected, abused etc. This child won't have had a settled life and will have experienced huge losses. It may well be that mainstream isn't the best option for him but this is something that school need to work on with the OP in connection with an Ed Psych. OP - if your son hasn't been referred to an Ed Psych yet or isn't statemented then you may need to start that process.

Of course Forehead.
Because this boy's had the same chances as all the other children in his class, so of course he should behave perfectly.

No-one's saying there shouldn't be consequences so that the majority can learn, but children like the OP's son will need help as well.

I can see both sides. Children who have been removed from their families often have major problems that get in the way of learning. It is not their fault and they do deserve help.

The school I work at has an equivalent of an "exit room", except that its called an inclusion suite. The children are removed from lessons for appauling behaviour. In the inclusion suite there are people who talk with them about their behaviour and the underlying problems. Prehaps a well run "exit room" or "incusion suite" is a good way of addressing emotional problems children are having. The school I work at use social stories to make children think about their behaviour. Once behavioural problems are sorted then the child can start learning.

When internally excluded children learn that there is a consequence for bad behaviour. With rights come responsiblity. A child has a right to an education, but not the right to distrupt the learning of others.

In the inclusion suite children learn a far more important lesson than the maths or geography lesson they have missed. In adult life there are no allowances for having an awful childhood. No one cares about sob stories when you are in employment.

That's not the point NannyDog. I do sympathise with the child, who is clearly troubled. I do however, think that it is wrong that other children have to suffer because of the behaviour of others. If the teacher does not remove the child from the class and the child continues to misbehave and disrupt the learning of others, who gets it in the neck?, the poor , overworked, underpaid
teacher. This is because the parents of the well behaved kids will then accuse the teacher of being unable to control the class.

I teach a few children like the OP's son. I differentiate for their behaviour in terms of skills or attainment I praise, how I use teaching assistants, where they sit in the room, the instructions And work I give etc. But if you break my rules the consequences are the same. Children , especially those referred to in this thread, need clear and enforced boundaries.

Apologies if the following has already been said - have not read the whole thread.

The teacher should be taking time, with their Head of Department or your DSs tutor, Head of Year or a behaviour mentor to develop more of a relationship with your DS. Relevant work should be left for him in the referral room. That's not good practice, that's basic practice. I'm sure once he feels that teacher is taking more of an interest in him, it will be a start in the right direction.

The department teacher who is mentoring this Teach First teacher could be another person who could help. But how to contact these people without going over the trainee's head could be hard.

What a lucky boy to have you as his adoptive family. Good luck.

I agree the OP's son should be treated as any other student - to be sent out of class after a warning. But this is not a one off, he is constantly sent out of class.

It needs to be followed up eg. a visit to the school counsellor/have a support system for him. Because repeatedly sending him out of class and leaving it at that is clearly not working.

Also, if this were September and the very start of their practice, I'd feel differently. But they will have been teaching for a while now and by this time in the year they should be addressing the needs of individuals more as the basic planning/marking should be more easy and settled for them.

I don't think much of Teach First. A good old-fashioned PGCE is much more thorough and supported.

I think that the teachers job is to teach, not do crowd control. Obviously, behaviour management is a significant part of being able to do the job, but the teacher cannot spend all her time controlling the behaviour of a few behaviour at the expense of actually teaching the majority.

Even the best, most experienced teachers are not all experts in how to manage children with various SEN. I think you should establish whether your child needs a statement for a start. I do agree that if your child is sent out of the classroom, he needs to be given appropriate work to take with him. If he fails to complete that work then you, the parent has to apply sanctions so that there is consistency in yours and the the schools approach.

I am at a loss as to what else the teacher can do (apart from set work for him to do in the exit room). She probably already has seating plans etc in place. She is not excluding him the first time he misbehaves, she is giving him a couple of warnings first and he is choosing to continue his behaviour. She has a duty to educate all the other children in her class, besides yours.

The only other thing I can think of is for the teacher to give him a task to do as soon as he arrives in the room. This would keep him occupied while she settles the class and she could ask him to pause and listen to her when she needs to explain something to the class as a whole.

I also think she would be doing your DS no favours if she doesn't apply the same rules to him as to the rest of the class. It would mark him out as different and might make his behaviour worse if he is trying to fit in with the other kids and not seem 'different'.

Extra behaviour in the first paragraph there. Must proof read

i have fostered children who have gone on to be adopted. i have a child with sen and i have worked in further education with young people 14 - 16yrs who have been excluded from school.

it is shocking that looked after children and young people are still so educationally disadvantaged. it is not good enough for people to say we have to teach the quiet majority. we have to teach all children. whilst i agree large classes cant be continually disrupted there has to be an alternative for a child with emotional and behavioural difficulties (i am assuming this OP as for a young person to be recently bereaved and adopted he has experienced trauma and will need help with this in order to achieve his potential)

i would speak to the senco (special educational needs co-ordinator) at your son's school asap. this person will also co-ordinate support in order for your son to learn as they cover additional needs). there has to be a policy in place which enables your son to learn without the class being disrupted. it is the LEA's duty under the education act to give your son an education appropriate to his needs and ability. it doesnt seem as if his needs are being met

it may be your son requires some in class support or an inclusion room where he can receive support and teaching until he can return to the main classroom

even though you are changing schools for sep i would recommend taking action now. young people can slip through the net and get into the habit of being switched off from learning. your son still enjoys learning and you want to make sure that he doesnt drift into the cycle of being in the exit room with his 'naughty' mates.

oops should proof read too

meant to add in first paragraph that i am at some peoples response. ALL children deserve a good education

Yes - ALL children do deserve a good education! But that is why we have SENCOs and inclusion units and heads of year - to ensure that children with extra needs get the appropriate help and support. It is not the sole responsibility of the class teacher to do this - esp inexperienced staff. That job is so huge with all the differing needs that it must be managed by specialist staff who can support class teacher appropriately.

And I agree - there cannot be different expectations of behaviour for your son, however sympathetic the staff are. That kind of special treatment ('oh you are adopted, therefore I shouldn't send you out of class after 3 strikes but just include and absorb the disruption') doesn't help anyone - least of all the discipline of the remainder of the class who cannot understand why it is different rules for different kids.