to object to terms such as manageress or authoress?

[MaundyBra]

It was mentioned on another thread but was really a side issue, so I've started another one.

My granny was a Clerkess (before she had to leave to get married), and people still say "He's a male Nurse"

I don't like the 'ess" usuage. I don't think it adds anything.

of course its patronising, its a diminutive, and its intended to denote ones gender, as if it matters. Why do you need a seperate word for women doing a job? You don't.

Its not like objecting to it makes you some kind of bra-burning militant, more that clinging to it makes you look pointedly old-fashioned. Its not really the norm anymore, at least not amongst educated people who know how to speak properly.

You didn't answer my Q, zukiecat.

if denoting gender is what you are trying to avoid then you need to remove the part of the word that currently marks it as male.
So I guess you are manag of a shop. If you are in movies you are an act and so on
sea not seaman
hu not human

wo not woman.

It could get tricky, but it's the only way.

Ooh what a great thought provoking thread!

By the by, I act, therefore I am a.......actually it doesn't bother me if I'm referred to as actor OR actress. As long as I've got the smell of the sawdust dhalinks. It does seem though, as years pass, I am referred to as an "actor" more often than not. Maybe it's just my mum that calls me an actress..

Ah well back to MN learning lines.

I like the -ess feminine endings. I would rather be an actress than an actor.

You don't have to, and sorry I should have put that more gently, but I'm really interested in your answer if you chose to give one. Which you haven't yet.

The question was, can you explain why a woman was called a WPC and a man a PC?

(It's no longer the case, by the way.
In 1984, WPC Yvonne Fletcher was killed on duty
but in 2009 PC Sharon Beshenivsky was killed on duty.)

No need to to apologise, I was being curt and thus rude.

This is where I was trying to get to.

A worldview that says gendered labels for jobs really don't matter, can't explain why a female copper was called WPC and a male copper PC. In this worldview, the instance shouldn't arise and it's baffling that it does.

So one could try out another worldview.

Eg, that adding "Woman" in front of "Police Constable" for female officers makes the default definition of "Police Constable" male. So that female officers are never the norm. They are perpetually an anomaly. And since they're different and not mainstream it seems natural they should be on different payscales or promotion paths, doing different roles and eligible (or not) for different posts.

This worldview explains very well why a male-controlled organisation "permitting" female employment but not wanting to lose male power or promotion opportunities (eg 1980s police force), would call female coppers WPCs and male copper PCs. To reinforce the WPCs' place.

There's no guarantee this worldview is correct, either, and you can probably come up with more. But this one does seem to match what we observe in the real world in this instance, whereas "gendered labels are completely unimportant" doesn't.

And I don't mind being called a woman either. As long as there's no subtext like the above.

I am a woman to my husband. At my work place I am a person, who performs the duties consistent with the position. What is my anatomy between the legs is, frankly irrelevant. (No, I am not a prostitute where it actually may be.)

Excellent post NiceCage - you have brilliantly articulated the crux of the matter.

I absolutely hate it and yes it IS sexist and implying that the manager, the one that manages, is by default a man and it needs to be pointed out if she is in fact a woman. Exactly the same as "lady doctor".

It's just a gender? Well answer me this - if you are talking about a, say, conference where there are people who manage present, will you say "managers" or "manageresses"? Managers? Then you agree that a manager is by default a man and as someone said earlier, manageress "It's taking the basic role and then adding a gratuitous 'oh look it's a woman' to it."
(There are genders in French and if you have 99 women and 1 man in a room, they would all be addressed collectively in masculine form)

Thisisanicecage and ullainga. Most eloquently argued.

Have you ever thought about becoming authoresses?

Shit I mucked that up!

Don't have an issue with actresses, or "esses" in general, but "authoress" and "manageress" wind me up because they sound so bloody stupid.
If I ever get anything published and someone referred to me as an authoress, I'd slug 'em

It makes me cringe. [pedant emoticon]

Don't see the problem with denoting gender in a word as long as it doesn't sound ridiculous, tbh. Yes, it is a bit twee, but hey-ho. Lots of things are!

my examples above aren't conclusive I know - it's a trend not a rigid rule.

I'd still say it's significant though that I have NEVER heard anyone at work refer to his boss as 'my manageress' it's ALWAYS 'my manager'

It's to do with respect. People refer to their boss respectfully, so it's manager.

People don't feel the need to be respectful to shop-workers (ask any shop worker!), so 'manageress' becomes common.

A prison Governor is never called a Governess:

article about a female governor

She is fab, btw, I hear her talk about her work once and it was inspirational (sorry to go off piste, but it ties in with stubhub's point about respect - a servant female governer was always called a Governess whereas a female governor with real power is called a plain Governor.")

Prince Kate Middleton will not be amused.

Some females call themselves ACTORS

To take the gender out of names could cause some problems.

How do you fancy poster and posteress....(Its better than being called a CHAIR)

princess is one of those odd ones which where being the princess has more status than the prince.

prince = not a king, second tier. you show me a prince, I'll show you some who wishes he was a king.

princess = isn't like that. it's a top job. show me a princess .. I don't think 'inferior type of queen' I think 'wow, a princess'

YANBU. Gender isn't relevant to jobs so jobs should have gender-neutral titles.

Old fashioned, but not offensive! Lighten up.

Princess has more status than Prince? You mean other than the fact that she can't inherit the throne due to a lack of a penis, unless there were absolutely no princes to be found with the required equipment?

Good example.