to object to terms such as manageress or authoress?

[MaundyBra]

It was mentioned on another thread but was really a side issue, so I've started another one.

Well actually, in C19th when degrees for women were first introduced, the degree itself was called 'Masters' but a woman who got, say, an MA, was called a 'Mistress of Arts'.

[sad bastard emoticon]

worra I don't think pointing out someone's sex is sexist per se, but I do think that when it's unnecessary it can be.

"Just think about how weird it'd be to say teacheress, officeress, it'd be obviously making a point. So I don't see how manageress is different in that respect!"

Very good point.

If we had a consistant feminine and masculine then it would be just feminine and masculine and a feature of our grammar.

But when it is only certain professions - typically 'important' or high profile ones? then it's sexist?

but - you don't say Directoress, or CEO-ess, so it's not even that, is it?

I don't know what I think now.

Stubbornhubby Not so... what about:

Butcher
Baker
Candlestickmaker
Tinker
Tailor (although I have seen 'tailoress')
Solidier
Spy
Politician

I don't think the 'demeaning' argument works.

(warmning to my theme)

• your boss at work is your manager, never your manageress. that's becasue you talk respectfully about her.

• the person who told you off in the cafe is a manageress. that's to deliberately patronise hew

yy. doctoress, surgeoness, lawyeress.

So it's not about those roles that are typically 'male' being highlighted when a female does them?

so out of all the jobs, which get 'ess'ed?

manager
actor
and?

Hecate I think the point is that because it is patronising, basically people don't feel free to patronise 'the professions' but where they're referring to a (perceived) lower-status occupation it is more normal.

Of course, this COULD be because traditionally there were lots more women in those 'low-status' occupations and not many, say, doctors, so it never became an issue.

Out of interest... the other 'ess' no one has mentioned is murderess... anyone still use that?

Some job titles are gender specific, some arent... cant say it really bothers me at all..

I certainly wouldnt turn down a good job on the basis of not liking the title because it alerts people to my gender.

Other gender-neutral professions:

Secretary
Nurse
Administrator
Assistant (anything)
Florist
Undertaker
Assassin...

"OP Yanbu in my opinion, but I would not get too uptight about the people who still cannot decide whether to move into the XX century."

No - like I said earlier I wouldn't get the lawyers out and I put this in AIBU mainly to get a debate going. My dad uses terms like this a lot and I find it interesting how there is a definite generation gap. The other day I took DD to the doctor and he asked afterwards: "What did HE say?" I don't think I would make the assumption that the doctor would be a man but he naturally would. (It was a woman btw).

In my language (not english obviously), one would say 'manageress' or 'directrice' to actually stipulate not only that the female is holding this role, but also that she is doing it in a manner different from a male. Highly unpleasant to females, though the word is "proper" and not colloquial or rude.

Hmm, you know what? Maybe it's about jobs women moved into where people weren't comfortable with them being there.

You know? Factory workers, servants, who cares.... Doctors, lawyers, traditionally, there were none.

But something publicly visible like an actor, or a manager in a shop... there were enough of them to be a social presence but not enough for this to be the norm. So little 'femmed-up' titles got invented for them.

?

Stubborn... Are you limbering up those limbs of yours for a flight of fancy?

How have you extrapolated your examples, ie. boss and cafe? Anybody could do that, make an example out of anything. It needn't be true but there's no limit on surreal, I guess.

I think the only gender specific occupation I can think of immediately is a....
sperm donor.
(well may be not an occupation )

How about everybody just calls themself what they're comfortable with? There's no need for uniformity when there's a choice.

Jo Brand refers to herself as a comedienne rather than a comedian. I work with a lady who refers to herself as a co-parent rather than a mother. I don't like the term but she does. Different strokes for different folks and I don't think the 'rules' are that hard and fast that people can't refer to themselves as they wish - just as long as they don't insist that other people fall into line themselves.

"How about everybody just calls themself what they're comfortable with?"

Well it seems that a lot of people are not comfortable with the "ess" suffix, but they still get called that.

Jo Brand can call herself whatever she likes, cos she's bloody funny!

She is that, Maundy, so deadpan too.

If you tell people that you're the manager, do they still persist in calling you 'manageress'?

I used to be a manager in an office-based business and never got called "manageress". I think female managers of shops or restaurants tend to get the "-ess" treatment more.

I now run my own business and I have no job title except dogsbody.

I wonder where governess came from. An equivalent male wouldn't be a governor would he?

I think, or would like to think, that the '-ess' suffix is gradually going out of fashion. Poet, author, head, manager, actor all spring to mind as commonly used gender neutral descriptions. Female waiters and stewards - are they still referred to as waitresses and stewardesses, or is that changing?

Good. It would be gender specific to be bitchesbody.

I think stewardesses are generally cabin crew these days.

at bitchesbody