To think it will all kick off on here after this is aired?

[MsScarlett]

My mum just texted me to say that tomorrow there is a documentary on BBC3 at 9pm called, "Is Breast Best?".

I predict a bunfight!

I agree hairfullofsnakes. Xstitch please don't feel so bad :(

I am 100% in agreement with scottishmummy and her comments about it not being your role to get unpleasant facts "out there", Leonie.

You keep coming back to "I have 2 autistic kids to look after" as though you are being forced to keep labouring away in some thankless task. This is not the case. You are choosing to find time in your busy life to keep posting and you are choosing to use the words that you are typing. Your posts today across the two threads have been a bit contradictory today - you don't intend to hurt, you are happy to offend, you want to win, your heart aches for the non-BF babies, you don't care about promoting BFing. It's all over the place, but what is consistently coming through is a strong desire to say unpleasant things, without moderating your tone or taking on board the views of others. If that is your character then nothing anyone else on this thread can say will change that. If it is something that you want to change then feel free to do so at any time. MN isn't like RL where you say something and think "doh, shouldn't have said that". It takes time and effort to type a response and there is plenty of scope for thinking "is this really what needs to be said?".

Tiktok got a hard time on the other thread, unfairly in my view. I have spoken up in favour of her fair approach before. While Tiktok may occasionally fall foul of someone being over-sensitive, or just anti-BF, you consistently offend a large range of people, from the sensitive and unpleasant to the extremely pro-BFing.

You said earlier in this thread that you are troubled about the possible hypocrisy of your very polarised BF views and your "wishy-washy" CS views. You should be troubled about this and I would hope that your comments about thinking hard about this matter are true - I have to say that I have strong doubts though. The CS/natural birth argument has really interesting parallels with the FF/BF argument and it has been a real eye-opener to see the mental gymnastics that some people are prepared to perform to defend their views on BFing and their choice to have a CS. It is eerily like the "double-think" described in 1984. While there are different motivations and contexts for the two issues, the same sorts of emotions and thoughts are bound up in both and the same sensitivity and courtesy should apply.

It is NO different for someone to tell me that I could have overcome my BF problems but I didn't try hard enough, than it is for me to airily describe my 45 minute, drug-free, pain-free labour and tell someone who finished up with a CS that they should have pushed harder. It is NO different for you to tell someone who chose to FF that your heart aches for their baby than it is for me to tell you that I am so very sorry for your babies who never experienced the wonder of a natural birth.

What is different is that the thought of actually saying something like that makes me feel just a little bit sick.

'bf should be the norm where possible '

I totally agree hairful I am just trying to make leonie and others of the same mindset see that being nasty about ff is not going to achieve that as it is counter productive. Also to understand that occasionally it really is not possible. Finally that saying anything nasty about any mother who is trying their best is just not acceptable behaviour from a reasonable adult.

I want people to see how a simple change in wording (or tone if verbal rather than on MN) can make all the difference to the interpretation and effect of the words being used.

People keep saying they don't understand other well the main thing I don't understand is the people who seem to actually want people to feel like shit. (this last bit wasn't aimed at you hairful or any of the other reasonable ones) Just a general statement about life in general/

Leonie oh, i'm jealous geek! i cant get to the gym til saturday!! The BeActive thing is still going on here, but only limited hours and it finishes before DH gets home, boo hiss.

Ha you won't be when I tell you I work full time .

Also, its the actual intake of the stem cells and immune factors and whatnot in BM that do what they are designed to do, and their absence does have consequences.

In reality then the formula doesn't cause harm, there isn't an active ingredient that causes harm. Potential harm comes from what isn't there, but actual formula doesn't cause it.

Do you see the difference in wording and why one set of wording can so easily cause offence?

Xstitch , thats a shame how sad for you, I know I always feel a bit sheepish when i tell people of stopped BFing after 4 weeks. After that I met someone from a breastfeeding support group by accident, had a chat and thought ok I'm better informed for next time. But we shouldnt feel bad I defy anyone to look at my DS and suggest he wasnt properly fed as a baby!

However I dont understand why people do extended BFing, but I dont feel the need to make insensitive comments about it as I respect that it is there choice unless I am asked my opinion. In RL people (even those who dont have kids) made comments about DS sleeping in our bed on and off, he will sleep anywhere and we never have a problem with him sleeping in his own bed all the way throught the night.

Having watched the programme and read some of this diatribe, I'd love to see some information now on why breast milk is REALLY best. The doctor talked about "study after study" but in my small study of two children, the BF one went on to develop both asthma and eczema and the FF one got neither. I always wonder about the IQ thing too - because breastfeeding is linked so strongly to older, middle class mums whose children, it's widely acknowledged, tend to do better at school and in life than children from younger mums from more working class backgrounds - how do we know it's the breastmilk that's doing it?

(I'm genuinely interested - not trying to stir anything up!)

My fanjo aches for the all the c-section babies who never got to snuffle down their mummy's fannies.

Actually, I'm on so it probably just aches anyway, heh.

I have wondered about the cause and affect issue with regard to the IQ issue as well stillfeel. Perhaps this could have skewed the results in some studies. However I think in some of the studies the subjects were grouped (before analysis) for other factors such as socio-economic class and level of education of the parents to try and remove some of these possible areas of bias. I think (though I would have to go read them to check) these studies showed there to be a higher average IQ in the bf babies. I think one study measure how the babies eyes followed something on a screen. Please note this is from memory of something I read a while ago.

The thing to remember though it is higher average IQ so it is not as simple as bf and you have a genius and ff and you will have a child of very low intelligence. Intelligence is multi-factorial so by definition it is difficult to measure things that affect it.

I find that very patronising pommedechocolat, actually I find it very rude.

'i think the difference is, i dont mind.'

You are missing the point is there are people who do mind. Just because you don't doesn't make it right for you to treat others like shit and make them feel like shit. Really what is so wrong with shoeing a little compassion. To use your argument the human mind is capable of showing compassion. It is designed to do that so it should be used for that at least some of the time.

LeonieDelt Thu 14-Apr-11 14:39:32
kungfu:
"You keep coming back to "I have 2 autistic kids to look after" as though you are being forced to keep labouring away in some thankless task. This is not the case"

Try stepping into my shoes for FIVE fucking minutes - you'll retract that so fast your head will spin.

No. I won't retract it - why would I? It's true. No-one is forcing you to keep slaving away over your keyboard, typing post after post on the subject of BFing. You have made several comments about how hard your life is and how you don't have time to get involved in supporting BFing. Like Scottishummy said, it's not your role to educate the world. You are not being forced into doing it. Your home circumstances, difficult as I am sure they are, aren't really relevant to what you choose to post on MN. If it is such a thankless martyrdom, then just stop posting about it!

roll I just read that those type of allergies are caused whent he immune system either switches to one type or the other HT1/2 if I remember rightly.

Oh I had a 'C'section, maybe I should have allowed my baby and possible me an increased risk of complications or even death just to stick to natural means. Or maybe I should have allowed my baby to be palpated after muscle relaxent to turn my baby around so he could come out of my fanjo - all very natural. Medical intervention - Oh lets just let everyone suffer and die so we keep it natural.

We are mammals that have evolved to the point whereby we have choice of natural means or use medical and technological advances.

I am pro choice.

If Leonie's breasts can ache for my child then my vagina can ache for hers. Fed up of everyone pussyfooting around her. She needs a hobby/job.

As an aside have nothing against c-sections other than I'm never going to be allowed one unless total catastrophe is the only other option. I think worrying about birth and feeding unnecessarily is missing the point of having children myself.

"As for the rest, sorry, i went into tl;dr mode."

No idea what this means.

xstitch Thu 14-Apr-11 14:50:35
I find that very patronising pommedechocolat, actually I find it very rude.

I don't think it was intended seriously - I think it was a response to the ridiculous "my breasts ache" comment. I stand to be corrected if wrong.

Thanks Kungfu. Was indeed a sarky comment that obviously was not at all funny or clever. oops.

Well I don't think I am pussyfooting around leonie she has helped bring back suicidal thoughts due to her nasty comments.

Please don't wish some catastrophepomme. I sometimes find myself wishing the Drs had let me die rather than giving me a section. Please remember Leonie is not the only one on here who had a section and from what she has said I think of all the mothers who have had Csections on this thread she is the one who is least likely to be offended. A C-section IS NOT AN EASY WAY OUT. ANother person says it and I am going to fucking scream this bloody street down.

xstitch you are absolutley right re intelligence - its arguably hard to measure and can take many forms anyway. Nature and nuture often work hand in hand and are not mutally exclusive or conflicting - educational achievement is one of these. GCSE predictions are done using postcodes and prior achievement, not whether the child was bf!

To extend breast is best principle of keeping it natural I am sure many person who have had assistance in conceiving would be mortally offended me included -but I gues pommes fanjo would ache too much for all those fanjos that never had intercourse at the time of conception perlease

leonie I am sorry but you have not succeeded in being civil. No one has sais that looking after 2 special needs children is funa and games. People have been asking you show compassion towards others that is all.

What amounts to death threats is the most unacceptable thing I have read on this thread. It actually tops your other insults which i didn't think possible.