To think it will all kick off on here after this is aired?

[MsScarlett]

My mum just texted me to say that tomorrow there is a documentary on BBC3 at 9pm called, "Is Breast Best?".

I predict a bunfight!

Umm removing formula may not be great to the chances of babies making it past 3 months in a % of the population as a whole...

I'm off to the gym but will be back to answer any other points you've raised Leonie btw. You shan't scare me off

Well now I'm really confused Leonie. I would have thought that improving the cultural perception of breastfeeding was pretty closely linked with making breastfeeding the cultural norm, so I'm surprised that you "don't give a rat's ass" about that.

Yet your boobs ache and your heart aches over every baby who doesn't get breastmilk because you see the difference in how their little bodies grow. Wow.

No, not intended to make others feel like shit. Not at all. You're just clearing up misconceptions.

I think it's really quite simple.

'Breast is best' with two caveats.

1. Just because breastmilk is best, does not mean formula is evil. It is second best, which is perfectly fine.

1. If baby is unhappy or losing weight or mother is in pain, distress, emotional turmoil, bleeding, crying or otherwise unhappy and the support that should be readily and freely available has not helped, then breast is not best, formula is.

www.breastfeedingmums.com/dr_jack_newman_how_breastmilk_protects_newborns.htm

this might help a bit?

"i see such differences in how their little bodies grow"

really?

Health care professionals can't you know, they ask, every single time you see them...

But you can?

I mean mine were a doddle to tell apart, the BF one was the underweight, hungry one, but you can carry on feeling sorry for the other one all you like

There is a massive difference between saying that breastmilk is better than formula (which I wouldn't argue with at all) and saying that formula fed babies are worthy of sympathy

'I do feel so strongly polarised about the issue, though. I wish i could tone it down, but sometimes it is very hard and i struggle keeping my trap shut on the net.'

Maybe you should grit your teeth and try harder then. How does that feel now. Just an illustration of how nasty things can feel.

The act of bf your child, and saying you enjoyed it saying you wished women had more support to breast feed is not what gets someone called insulting things like breast feeding police or worse breast feeding nazi. It is the is the insulting, condescending comments made towards ff for whatever reason. For the vast majority of mothers to be told that the neither care about their child's welfare nor love them is the most vile, disgusting and insulting thing you can say to them. Telling a mother who is trying very hard yet struggling 'oh your just not trying hard enough' is not much better. What is exactly wrong with saying something like 'I see you are struggling but if you want to continue we can get you help and support to make it easier. It may still be possible' Effectively it means the same as some of the nasty things that have been said but it gets the message across without being nasty IYSWIM. It is more supportive.

Can someone please tell me how an adoptive mother is supposed to be able to bf. Barring a situation where they are already bf a child they have given birth to it would take a miracle wouldn't it?

Really Leonie some women don't get any milk through. My dd lost more than 10% of her birth weight in the first week of me trying to feed. She was clinically dehydrated despite me spending about 140hrs (over a week) trying to get something into her. I was not just told this by a HCP I checked her results myself, I also know she hadn't had a wet nappy. Tried to express out of desperation and I do know that is less effective but a got absolutely nothing out of 3hrs on each breast over one night. A lot of it spent with someone holding the expresser to one nipple as I tried fruitlessly for dd to get a latch on the other one. OK I had 18 hrs off in short chunks, I went to the toilet sometimes and I had a shower (pathetic and selfish I know) ,I had to stop while I was changing her nappy (maybe I am stupid I couldn't work out how to do both at the same time.), I had to stop while they took tests and the most selfish of all I went to get myself something to eat but I was thinking if I don't eat anything WTF is my body going to produce milk with. Also no I didn't sleep barring the time immediately after surgery but that wasn't exactly natural and no amount of will power would have kept me awake with all that medication in my cerebral membranes. Oh yeas and they made me stop trying for a dew minutes while the Dr examined the abcess I developed under my armpit.

balsam - I don't agree point 2 is always the case, I was bleeding, crying etc but I don't think my newborn ds knew or cared, he just wanted/needed breastmilk. There's a threshold though, of course there is, and everyone is different.

Leonie I think your feelings about babies come from a good place, and you are right, there is a dilemma in presenting factual info when people inevitably take it as personal criticism.

I have been criticised too for the same sort of reasons.

But your own honesty about what you feel when you see a baby being bottle fed adds to the cultural perception of breastfeeding which you say you don't care about - I do. People really don't like you being sorry for their babies, and there's no surprise there! It's demeaning and judgemental and while you may not be able to 'help' feeling that way, I'd maybe dare to ask you to work on it a bit and try re-framing and not to share this sort of honesty while you're working on it.

You might not mind someone expressing sorrow for your own non-vaxed children, because you are confident you are right in your choice and you have the sort of personality that rises above it and any opinion 'random strangers on the internet' might have...not everyone is able to be like that.

I don't think that's the answer, though, leonie - telling people to avoid threads which might have info in them to upset them.

People do browse, people do surf, and when something matters to people they also actively seek out discussions on it....even when they know they might get angry or hurt.

It's what human beings do.

in a nutshell be more boundaried less condescending.no mum or child needs your sympathy.if you do work directly with mums leonie you need proper boundaried supervision and ability to work through your issues with projecting onto others.you are not coming froma good place,you are coming from a specific and value laden place

if i met you or anyone with those views in a professional rl context i would complain and ask you/they be removed from direct face to face work

The problem is Leonie in your posts you are not just saying that breast milk is better can't you see that? I agree that bm is designed for babies, I don't remember anyone writing that they disagree with that point. As I said above instead of saying to struggling mum why don't you just grit your teeth and get on with it or some equally condescending phrase why not say something like:

I see you are struggling but if you want to continue we can get you help and support to make it easier. It may still be possible'

Can you see the difference? because I can.

If formula had been removed my dd would be dead. Is that what people want? Do they not want a ff baby polluting the gene pool? Then they wonder why people become offended.

BTW my dd looks no different to any other child in her school. I cannot tell which of them were bf by looking at them although I know many were. I asked my mum about it this morning apparently I was ff because the same thing happened to her when she tried to feed me herself. Now there's an idea! Formula should have been banned then. Then I would have died in infancy, a lot of happy people there.

Leonie read my post there are ways to present facts without being nasty. I do it every tmie I go to work and sometimes I have to tell people unpleasant things, being nasty makes the news feel 1000x worse. I don't mean to be offensive but my buttons have well and truly been pushed. Thank fuck you are not a BF supporter because if you had been mine I am almost 100% certain I would have killed myself while suffering PND your comments would have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

leonie,isnt your role to tell it as it is,or truth shock anyone

i strongly suggest
1.you get a mentor who can properly supervise you
2.discuss how to moderate your vociferous tone
3.address your earnest you must all listen to me sentiments
4.you need to learn to be able to hold opposing views and still respect individuals.without resorting to misplaced sympathy

if you do any face to face work,i suggest you stop until you can develop a more empathic supportive demeanour

There is no practical difference to the receiver of intentional hurt and non-intentional hurt.
The pain remains the same.

Those that say 'I'm only telling the truth' are usually deliberately setting out to hurt or frankly don't give a shit about other people's feelings. It's a basic lack of humanity.