To think it will all kick off on here after this is aired?

[MsScarlett]

My mum just texted me to say that tomorrow there is a documentary on BBC3 at 9pm called, "Is Breast Best?".

I predict a bunfight!

Leonie - try starting off with a benign view of the motivation of most mothers, that they want the best for their babies and they love them (for a minority this is not the case, but the way their babies are fed is of very little consequence, in comparison with babies whose mothers do love them and do want the best for them, to their well-being).

Then just don't judge them. 'Tis easy! You could try thinking about your own personal responsibility for your choices, and from there, think about welcoming the acceptance of the possibility and desirability of others' taking personal responsibility for theirs. You can look at society and culture, and see the barriers people face, even when they don't realise they are there, and understand the influence of these, and how they get in the way of personal autonomy.

Some people on here may not believe me, but I dont judge people for making a choice to ff, or for thinking bf is disgusting, or just not 'for them'. It's not that I 'forgive' them or 'understand' their reasons - all that is irrelevant. I have no feelings at all about their personal decision, and don't see it as right or wrong at all (unless someone deliberately chooses to feed something unsafe or unsuitable with a view to deliberately harming a baby - but that's not what we are talking about).

The choice to not BF is so open to ridicule. I know lots of pro-BF women (I am pro-BF, even though I didn't) who are fabulous and non pushy. Unfortunately I find some are so utterly convinced they are right they find someones reasons laughable or an excuse to be condescending.

If I FEEL something, does it make me wrong? If it is a genuine thought or feeling who are you (general) to say MY feelings are wrong or denigrate me for having them.
Does that make sense?

Thanks. It was just a question to ask if you' mind expanding on "the way I feel about suckling babies" - is this due to events or feelings specific to something that's happened in your personal life? Or is it a general feeling that it is something that you don't think you can tolerate? Do you know where it may have come from?

Also - with regards to dp helping out - I can understand as feeding is so all consuming in the early days. Did he want to help out, or did you feel you would need a break? In other words - did it mainly come from him, or you? Or both of you? Would you have possible considered mix feeding in this situation if it wasn't for the suckling babies feeling?

Thanks so much and please don't answer if you don't want to. I am genuinely curious.

Leonie

You say "I think i also get very very cross when i hear [read] 'i didnt have enough milk' - because usually it is from someone who was told they didnt have enough milk, by the HCPs, and HCPs are so, so often wrong about so much that it makes my blood boil."

And if you were to come upon a debate on the increasingly high rate of medical intervention in births, and C-sections in particular, and read where someone said:

"I get very very cross when I hear [read] 'I had to have a section because the baby was too big and would have gotten stuck" because usually it is from someone whose HCPs told her the baby was too big for vaginal delivery, and HCPs are so, so often wrong about so much that it makes my blood boil."

"My baby was very big and I at least tried to give birth vaginally. I can understand if it's an emergency and the mother has a genuine reason, but women who are so selfish and lazy that they have an elective on their second baby (rather than a vbac) just make me see red. I just can't understand why they don't want to do the best for their baby."

Not very nice at all, is it? There are real people on the other side of the online debate, and your "black and white" response to the issue fails completely to take the fact that you don't know the context of their decision and therefore are not in a position to make judgements about it.

Of course it's appropriate to promote and support and educate about all the reasons why breastfeeding is the biological norm and should be the cultural norm, and to challenge misinformation about breastmilk and breastfeeding.

But Leonie, on these debates you seem to have a default setting of doubting any woman who says she "couldn't" and using sweeping and inflammatory language about formula and formula feeders that has the potential to be very, very hurtful and counterproductive if your goal is to improve the cultural perception of breastfeeding and breastfeeders.

I don't mean to be harsh, and I see that you are looking at these parallels yourself and questioning your approach, which is really very commendable. I just want to add my view that you're right to see the parallels and that comparing your feelings about your c-sections and other mothers' feelings about formula feeding is really not a case of "apples and oranges".

Trying to make mothers feel like shit about their first parenting experiences with their children (whether a matter of choice or not) is a rotten thing to do. This is true if you're talking about methods of birth, and it's equally true if you're talking about methods of infant feeding.

Leonie. Formula 'may' bring harm. It's all in the wording surely? Adding that little old 'may' there takes your post from being close to offensive to factual.

I also feel that BM is the right thing,it is the norm and should be. I don't feel that my child will hate me when he is older purely because I didn't BF. I also don't feel less of a mum.
If I had another would I try. Possibly I would.

As for vaccinations, I do vaccinate, so I get the feeling you and I are the very opposite ends of the parenting scales

I wholly see what you mean. I however know that formula IS inferior to BM, I won't argue that with you. I won't. It doesn't make me an inferior mother or my child inferior to yours because I FF him though. (Not saying you suggested that byswim)

oh dear.. i couldnt give a flying fuck how any other mother chooses to feed her baby... her baby her choice.... i bf all of my 4 for a year each... thats a long time .. my choice.. so what!!! but it was amazing how many relatives and friends seemed to think i wanted/needed to hear their opinion.... finally I told my sil to fuck off and that worked....

beaks out of other peoples decisions PLEASE

Thanks strandedbear. I appreciate you explaining. It is posts such as yours that show that there are many, many reasons why women choose to use formula. I agree that it is no-one's place to judge, but I think some people are just not aware that there could be very personal reasons why people don't want to breastfeed, and that it is actually rarely because "people can't be arsed".

It's a shame that the hospital did not make you aware that you could express, though :( Though it can be hard work, for many women it is another option that could ensure their babies have some breastmilk, and I think it is the health professionals job to ensure women are aware of all the options. It's all very well chanting "breast is best", but if the only guidance/options they are going to give people is "breast or bottle"? it's no wonder more people don't initiate breastfeeding.

Leonie the point is it shouldn't matter to YOU. You do what you do.
Are you going to spend the rest of the day feeling sorry for my dc? What about for me? I was FF due to adoption - and in the 80's no less.

I respect your right to promote BF and to correct falsehoods, but actually your tone does sting

Oh Leonie.
FF babies at risk of all kinds of diseases/infections from their inferior man made food? A strain on the NHS and a selfish choice by mothers?
Non vaccinated children at risk of catching real nasties due to non immunisation? A strain on the NHS and a selfish choice by mothers?
Things really aren't as clear cut as you'd like them to be and you aren't a perfect mother. SHE DOESNT EXIST. Stop trying to be one by placing others beneath you in your funny ranking systems.

Leonie, I am not a peer supporter but a breastfeeding counsellor.

I don't think I am 'better' or 'worse' a woman than you, either :)

I just am and you just are.

My blood doesn't 'boil' when people are told rubbish about bf but it does simmer a bit!

Breast is "normal", and should be the "default", as it is what human babies expect to be fed. Formula is, however, the cultural norm in the uk.

Then it's the benefits of bfeeding surely?!

?I can?t understand why anyone wouldn?t at least try to breastfeed.?

I can. Because I understand that everybody?s circumstances are different. I was very keen to breastfeed DS for my own personal reasons, some but not all health-related. But I understand there are as many reasons why someone would decide they don?t want to. I suggested on MN recently that some people don't see BF as compatible with their parenting style: they want the baby to get into a strict routine and sleep through asap, they want to minimise the disruption to their other children?s life and general family dynamic as much as possible etc. The response I had was ?Why do they even bother having children then?? That?s very unfair, I have friends who parent this way and they wanted and love their children as much as I love DS.

Also, I suffer from cluster headaches. I had an episode during pregnancy and I had to suffer them for nearly three months because the meds that prevent them and provide relief weren?t safe to use. If I had had an episode whilst BFing I would have switched to formula without a second thought. I would not have suffered the pain to carry on BFing.

Did any of you actually watch the programme??

It wasn't nearly as polarised as this discussion. They showed one teenager really persevering with BF despite initial problems and another choosing to FF basically because she was young and didn't want her peers to think she was weird. They looked at why teenagers often dismiss BF.

The lactivists weren't made out to be bampots and were allowed to make their point in a fairly non-judgmental way.

And there were a few in the middle who just struggled on mixed feeding.

Over all, the gist was, BF can be hard, women beat themselves up about it and more can probably be done to help women do it. No big revelations, then, but actually quite sensitive and thoughtful...

There is a problem though, Tiktok highlighted it earlier, which is that lots of people simply don't believe it makes much difference. despite studies showing it does. therefore the nhs is obviously going wrong somewhere.

I watched it. there was some stuff that made m cringe but on the whole it could have been a lot worse..

The issue I have is this: Has feeding my child formula physically harmed him at point of feeding? Has his system been poisoned in some way I know nothing of? Has it led to brain cells being destroyed or destroying bone density?

Or do you mean that it won't prevent excema, digestive nasties etc.

Because if formula brings harm - to my mind in English, brings harm means causes it, not prevents - then formula should immediately be removed and investigated surely?

Leonie thanks for answering that. If that's how you feel, that is how you feel. In my mind that's extreme and I appreciate the sadness of your heart for me, but let it be warmed by the fact that instead of a life in care I have an amazing set of parents.

your boobs & heart ache for non-bf. you are so condescending. scary thing is you really mean it too