To think it will all kick off on here after this is aired?

[MsScarlett]

My mum just texted me to say that tomorrow there is a documentary on BBC3 at 9pm called, "Is Breast Best?".

I predict a bunfight!

stitch you are wonderful please don't say these things about yourself, some people on here are just pricks ignore. Have you considered counselling, it helped me a lot in regards to self confidence and self worth. We are not talking about third world countries, we are having a debate about bf here. And please dont insult a lady who clearly needs help, and suport

that was forunsurelevanine

unsurevalentine

You say it's horrible to slag one another off and then you insult xstich - nice

And FWIW I don't think caesarian sections make you any less of a woman or a mother.

I had two, one emergency cs and one elective. I didn't feel I missed out on anything, bonded with my daughters and it didn't affect breastfeeding them in any way.

xstitch - I have seen a few of your posts in relation to what happened during your court proceedings and I echo what some others are saying about getting some counselling to get your head around it.

I haven't done family law for many years and I am sure there are others on MN better placed to give some thoughts on it but here are mine if they help:

1. You ex-h's lawyer was unprofessional and stupid - I assume those comments about your c-section and BF were made in your ex-h's statement, rather than being verbal submissions made in court. The lawyer should never have allowed the statement to be submitted with those points in - they are irrelevant and would have put your client in a bad light.

2. How clear are your memories of the judges actual words? Do you have access to your lawyer's notes of her comments? It might be that the negative aspects of the case were so horrendous that you have missed some positive comments, or put undue weight on some fairly neutral ones. If her words were literally "she doesn't seem that bad", is it possible that these were said in a pointed tone towards your ex-h's lawyer? If not, then you were very unlucky in your judge as that is not a particularly professional comment.

3. Assuming the judge took a normal approach, it might well be that she did not start shouting about the CS and BF comments, simply because they were so irrelevant that she did not feel the need to dignify them by dealing with them. From your point of view it would obviously have been a wonderful vindication of you if she had criticised the other side for their approach, but many judges don't get that involved in the unpleasantness that some people bring to these sort of proceedings.

I can imagine that it must have been horrendous to have such outrageous comments made about you and then to be expecting a judge to come down hard on the other side, and for this not to happen, but that doesn't mean that the judge was necessarily in agreement with those comments.

Please do think about talking to someone about what happened. Your ex-husband had a damn good go at ruining your life and failed. Don't let him succeed now by giving the things he said even a moment of belief.

Sorry - should have said "would have put HER client in a bad light"

Bloomin natural birthers good for you if you manage it, main thing is that you have an alive baby in your arms. Having a c section is out if ones control, if the baby needs to come out they need to come out. In the past before medical advancements such as this women and children died in child birth. C section, better than the alternative eh. Without one i would not have been alive

Without c section millions of beautiful children would not be alive today

Well leonie your experience's around peoples reactions to CS's is exactly how some FF'ers have been made to feel.

I agree that in the actual act of a CS, the woman really doesn't have much choice, but there are plenty here that argue that many women don't make the right choices during labour which results in a CS.

I am glad that this debate has made you think about your beliefs. I hope it does not dampen your passion for something that is clearly important to you, but I hope it has maybe it has ignited some empathy from you.

xstitch how are you this morning?

its individual choice people and we should support each other no matter how they chhose to feed dc, i mean i like marmite but doesnt make me wanna push it!!

Totally agree leather I couldn't have put it better myself. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about bf and using that to help and support rather than to cast judgement and make them feel bad. You don't know the story behind the womans decision to ff

I think the point that Cherry made in the documentary is that although she felt that she was judged for formula feeding, when she spoke to mums who had breastfed who felt that breastfeeding was the right course of action because of the value of breastfeeding that actually it wasn't that breastfeeding mums judged her, it was her who judged herself and she felt guilty about it.

After 5 years of mulling over this issue (not constantly obviously) i think that many women who end up ff for whatever reason when they actually wanted to bf then become very defensive about the issue and then perhaps that comes across as quite undermining of those who breastfeed. Eg, I formula fed my 4 of my children are they are at Cambridge/astrophysicists.... so how would breastfeeding have made a difference? That isn't often helpful to mums who want to breastfeed and want to have the evidence base to make informed decisions.

It's good leoni that you have widened your thinking and can see other perspectives. It is sad that women do choose from the outset to ff, when asked in my nhs antenatal class who would bf I and an older mum where the only ones who said we would. From that bf programme it's sad that teens have this sexualised vie of breasts and part of their deciding to not bf is peer related

I had to give up bf and resort to ff, and at the end of the day mums have to do what they feel is right at the time. No lw on hindsight a lot of pressure was put on me from midwife to mix feed as baby was dropping weight through the centimes so flt that I had no other option like a lit if women who have had to give up bf

Leonie - maybe it would help if you accept that no one makes infant feeding decisions in a cultural vacuum. We are all the products of our society, culture, family and experiences. That doesn't mean we cannot have any autonomy in what we do, but that autonomy comes with maturity and self-awareness and how many people have that in abundance at 17 (or even 70 in some cases)?

When people make a deliberate choice to ff, they are not being lazy or selfish (well, I suppose some individuals are, seeing as how the human race has all sorts). They love and want the best for their babies. But they don't feel that the effort to breastfeed - to go against cultural and social expectations , which is an effort - is worth it, because they don't see it makes much difference.

They might accept in their heads that 'breast is best' (horrible phrase) but what they really believe is 'breast is probably a bit better than formula, I suppose, but not enough to make a difference, and anyway formula is better because......' Insert arguments of your choice, including the rubbish we see here, sometimes, like the mother's diet means her milk is crap, or she smokes, or whatever. Plus the other stuff about other people being able to feed the baby, you can see how much he's getting and so on (these last are true, but they don't make formula 'better').

Then there are people with body issues - they love and want the best for their babies, but they cannot ever feel comfortable about using their own bodies for this purpose. Think about the tyranny of the body (and food) on women - and how breastfeeding combines these two tyrannies but with another person involved, too. Analyse that :) :)

Add to the mix women who might have a history of abuse that involved their breasts - yes, it could be healing to breastfeed, and I know personally of cases where breastfeeding really does help body/sex/food issues, but you need that maturity and insight and a desire to tackle the problems first.

So where does 'lazy and selfish' come in? Nowhere.

Goodpost hairfullofsnakes. Jeckadeck, sorry if you feel like that...

Just to add - I don't think many people who want to breastfeed are doing it because they have made a rational decision 'this is the best food for my newborn'. They want to do it because it feels normal to them, and as someone once said to me, 'I think most women breastfeed because they know it is a lovely thing they can do for their babies'....at some level, they know it is 'a lovely thing', just like pregnancy is 'a lovely thing' , and they want to experience it with their babies. They recognise the experience as worthwhile and fulfilling - far more than whether the right sort of antibodies are in milk :)

When it's not 'a lovely thing' it really is the most 'unlovely thing' :( When the baby does not grow, when he does not show any signs of even wanting to do it, when it hurts, or seems to make the baby sick, or whatever....then it can be a hugely disappointing experience and some mothers react with guilt, anger, sadness, and a few with real resentment at the whole notion of breastfeeding.

One of two get really, really nasty about breastfeeding, and I think this applies to people who think they are die-hard formula feeders but who have a secret appreciation of the 'lovely thing' - I liken it to the way people struggling with fertility think nasty things about people who fall pregnant easily, or who cannot be in the same room as their sister who has announced she's having her third baby.

Excellent post tiktok Thu 14-Apr-11 09:58:01

:)

rollit, shibboleth?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth

Do you mean 'accepted facts'?

:) expat

Great post, Leatherchair... Some people pick and choose their prejudices but to be prejudiced against somebody else's method of birth or feeding, leaves them wide open themselves for their own choices.

The only question that I have is whether HVs/midwives/baby clinics/GPs, etc. can provide help and support for women who are or want to breastfeed. If this help is available then I really don't see why BF has to be 'pushed' by pro-BF'ders. It's really treating women as if they are nitwits... that they haven't the wit to ask for help and advice if they want it. That makes me angry.

Tiktock, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I really believe that people's choices around feeding are so influenced by the culture surrounding them. It can be so subtle that at the time you don't even realise it. Only, when looking back can you see have influenced we often are.

Looking back, I had DS at 33, bUt had never seen a woman breast feed for more than a few mins, say in a cafe.

DH family regularly used to describe BF as "gross". SIL thought my relactation attempts were disgusting, trying to get a five month old to latch.

Yes, I should have had the fore sight to prepare for all of this, and if I am lucky to have another DC I will. However, until we unpick all the social pressures and influence that surround infant feeding then many women are not making a totally informed choice.