To think it will all kick off on here after this is aired?

[MsScarlett]

My mum just texted me to say that tomorrow there is a documentary on BBC3 at 9pm called, "Is Breast Best?".

I predict a bunfight!

MilaMae - "Coping with a newborn isn't blissful for the vast majority of us,it's bloody hell on earth,hard work,sleep deprived,painful and an emotional rollercoaster particularly if you don't have the luxury of a 6 month babymoon."

That is not true, either! Vast majority?????

Quit generalising, per-lease!

BF mothers have TWO big hurdles to get over. Number 1 - the almost unlimited advertising budget of big formula manufacturers, Nestle etc and number 2 - the fact that breasts are seen as sexual objects. How much easier it would be if we could just whip out our curvy bits and feed the baby without having to worry about being exposed. Without the baby there, it would be public indecency (ffs). I wonder if BF rates would be higher if milk was produced from the elbows? Society has conditioned us and the culture of breasts as sexual objects is powerful and should not be underestimated when supporting a brastfeeding mother. It was never even mentioned to me as an issue when I started BF but to me it was a HUGE one!

"That's not true"- so where are all these mums that skip through newborn days loving every minute and not wondering what the hell they've done?I've met about 2.I think you'll find there are plenty more that find it hard work,sleep deprived etc than those blissed out.

At every baby group I've attended with my 3 pretty much every mother ended up sobbing into their tea at some point over the first few weeks with group sympathetic nodding and tissue handing.

Oh and since when did you dictate which posters people could respond to?

"But there's a limit to how much formula you'd want to give them surely? Also what about the sort of sporadic comfort feeding that bf babies do - a few sucks here and there, a ten minute snooze, a bit more suckling. How would this work over a period of several hours with bottlefeeding? You'd end up throwing a lot of formula away and making up loads of bottles."

Why would you limit formula? FF doesn't for a second mean that you're not feeding on demand and they quite often decide they're going to have a tiny half hearted feed because what they really want to do is feed to sleep or sit half asleep for a while with a couple of sucks every few minutes at the end of a feed.

You do end up throwing bottles away, and getting another one they go cold and you can't keep them warm for too long without worrying about germs. Especially when they're little.

It's the same as putting your breast away because you think they're done and having to get it back out because they're not only with a bit more hassle, lol. You just cuddle them in and do it all one handed sit back down and carry on.

I didn't BF with DD1 as she had a tongue tie and it was very difficult for her to latch on and very painful for me...even though this went undiagnosed for 3 days. I BF DD2 and ok yes it was slightly painful but we got into a routine. I BF for 12 weeks (not any great amount of time I know) but (whatever argues to the contrary) the closeness of BF was second to none and in the night she latched on, cuddled in and it was bliss!! I still actually get a bit teary eyed when I think back to those times! I certainly would never tell a mother how she should feed her baby or judge her one way or the other but for me BF was beautiful. And in terms of development, DD1 and DD2 are pretty much the same so I don't beat myself up for not being able to BF DD1.

Tiktok - can you be more Person Centred about this - you come across too prescriptive.

I did not say no one felt the way you described, MilaMae. I challenged your term 'vast majority'.

My suggestion not to feed trolling behaviour is not a diktat - but it's poor netiquette to do so, wouldn't you agree?

Leonie - it means 'don't feed the troll' :)

"Because it?s not just the physical and time commitments that breastfeeding requires (which at 6 to 18 hours a day is, no doubt, significant). Being a nursing mother overrides everything. It dictates what you do and don?t eat and drink, your sleep schedule and where you can go, when and for how long. It even holds sway over what you wear. For an entire six months.

If that weren?t enough, the real rub is what women give up psychologically during that time. There?s the illusion that you can return to any previously held status of equality at home or in the workplace, and that others? perception of you, your value, and indispensability will not be affected. Well, that notion is a four-ounce Avent bottle of expressed milk gone bad."

Yes - lord knows how I managed to return to my teaching job when my bf baby was only 5 weeks old, and still manage to keep bf for the next 18 months.

And it NEVER dictated what I ate or drank, other than it stopped me getting completely rat-arsed while caring for my baby. Which is a good thing really no?

And ff mums also have to care for their babies. Which means they will have to get up at night, end up wearing clothes with sick on them (more so if they have a ff baby as ff babies tend to puke more).

Really, if you want complete autonomy - don't have kids!

"I think infancy should should be as blissful as possible"-oh you do you and what fuzzy film did you see that on."

Coping with a newborn isn't blissful for the vast majority of us"

No, being a mum can be very hard. But I imagine that being a baby can be very nice indeed - when they'e having their needs met!

Oh I give up!

Feed 'em all you like - why should I care ? :) :) :)

Tiktok...I would bet my bottom dollar that over the years you have encouraged many women, who otherwise may not have tried/continued to BF had it not been for wise, encouraging, understanding words from you...

That's nice of you, K999, but some people really, really don't like me you know :) They think I am judging them for not bf (and then get cross when I suggest this is all in their heads, not mine!).

Still...onwards and upwards!

I think that one or two people who have spent ALL DAY on here rubbishing/dismissing the comments of those who have formula fed their babies (and explained the reasons why) are actually quite cruel.

I see far more antagonism by some (by no means all) of the pro BF lobby towards others than the other way round...and I think if these people re-read their comments and considered what they have become....they might be very surprised.

Under the pretext of being oh so caring Mum's...you are displaying the opposite. You need a cause, you need to win the argument and this is your focus (other people's choices). Whether your words patronise/hurt other fellow women and Mum's is immaterial...YOU are right and YOU will have the last word eh?!

i would have loved to bf all 3dc ( more so because they were all prem) but, because i have to take strong medication due to lupus i couldn't. when i had dc1 i was trying to express milk for 3 days before i was told i could poison my baby. this made me feel bad enough but it was made worse when having dc2 1 midwife kept going on how breast was best and i should really be bf. i had to tell her to go and get my notes and pointed out my list of medication she soon shut up. by dc3 as soon as i got on the ward i told them why i couldn't bf before any body had a chance to say anything.
but this is 1 topic that will definately bring out the worst in people and start a fight no matter what the facts.

Just a small observation.

Some might say a baby whose mother has returned to work when it is 5 weeks old isn't getting it's needs met.

So why was your bf baby left at 5 weeks living a more "blissfull" existence than my ff twins whom I left teaching for?Some might say "don't have kids" if you're going to leave them at 5 weeks old.

Now personally I don't give a stuff when mums return to work as taking a career break isn't possible or in the best interests of mother,child or family for many people and all families,mums etc are different.However I'd just like to know why it's ok to judge mums on their feeding choices but it's not ok for others to judge mums on when they return to work.

Tiktok...some people don't like you??

Let me at em, let me at em....

K999 - I know, gutting, isn't it?!

All I can say is that those people are obviously fuck wits uneducated!

"They think I am judging them for not bf (and then get cross when I suggest this is all in their heads, not mine!)."

you haven't been judgey, I don't think, but it's hard not to feel judged if it's something you judge yourself for, if you see what I mean.

I'm pretty lucky in a way that I now am fairly sure that my inability to feed DS is linked to his SN, but at the time I didn't know he had any. He was latching on fine (according to MWs and HVs) I tried expressing to see if I had a supply problem (and to try and boost it), I stuck at it and fed him constantly I was eating allsorts of things that are supposed to be good for milk production - but he still didn't put on weight. I can now go, well actually I think he just couldn't feed, so I don't feel as bad, but for years I did feel like I had failed somehow.

and when you feel like that anyway, saying that, support and information would have helped, just makes you feel worse, so yeah people do feel judged when they're not necessarily being judged

and people in RL do ask why you're FFing and question it in a way they don't about other parental choices

sausagesandmarmalade

I HAVE spent a long time on this thread today not trying to rubbish other people's arguments but to challenge people's recurring misconceptions and prejudices about breastfeeding. I think it is necessary because breastfeeding is "being rubbished" on MN and in real life all the time and is becoming increasingly rare. I would have you point out how I have been cruel to anyone here? Some of my posts may have been angry but cruel?

And the antagonism and language many posters reserve for BFers is always far more extreme and insulting than the other way round. It is common to read about "BF nazis", "mafia", "bullies", "brigade", "hairy lentil weavers" and so on. Can you actually quote similar insults towards FFers posted by those who support BFing?

"Some might say a baby whose mother has returned to work when it is 5 weeks old isn't getting it's needs met"

Yes - possibly true. Certainly true that MY needs weren't being met! I would much rather have been at home.

"So why was your bf baby left at 5 weeks living a more "blissfull" existence than my ff twins whom I left teaching for?"

Well - maybe she wasn't. Who knows! I'm not comparing my baby's life to yours or anyone else though. I just feel my daughter had a nicer life than she would have done if she hadn't been breastfed.

"Now personally I don't give a stuff when mums return to work as taking a career break isn't possible or in the best interests of mother,child or family for many people and all families,mums etc are different.However I'd just like to know why it's ok to judge mums on their feeding choices but it's not ok for others to judge mums on when they return to work."

Ha ha MilaMae - I love your version of 'I don't give a stuff'. Make a really offensive judgemental comment that is clearly designed to hurt, then say 'oh well that's what some people would say, not me of course'.

I don't think it's ok to judge people on their feeding choices or whether they go to work or not.

I do think is perfectly ok to discuss and have an opinion on how babies emotional and nutritional needs might be best met though. As I'm sure you do!

No one ever asked my why I was FF feeding DD1 but they did ask

Why have you given her a dummy?
Why have you let her fall asleep?
Why did you decide to let her sleep with you?
Why did you not let her sleep with you (with DD2)
Why don't you encourage her to crawl?
Why don't you take her to a baby class?

And so the list goes on....

However anyone decides to feed, play with, clothe their child is entirely a matter for them. No one should judge and cast aspersions. But what we should do is be open to the fact that we're not all perfect and to be open to the fact that no one knows all the answers....and we should ALL be open to welcoming others who seek to educate/answer questions.....