Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it will all kick off on here after this is aired?

1004 replies

MsScarlett · 11/04/2011 21:21

My mum just texted me to say that tomorrow there is a documentary on BBC3 at 9pm called, "Is Breast Best?".

I predict a bunfight! Grin

OP posts:
tiktok · 12/04/2011 17:49

I don't deny it can be reassuring to a new mother - did not deny this at all. Where did I say it was nonsense? It isn't nonsense at all.

However it is a spurious 'advantage'.

I added the fact that knowing this can be a disadvantage to the baby.

Which is true!

Happy that you are confident, happy you are happy!

I am not in the least bothered about people who are happy to ff. I am bothered that many people want to breastfeed and switch to formula because they are unable to achieve a happy bf experience and are unhappy to switch.

tabulahrasa · 12/04/2011 17:51

Spud - FF babies comfort feed as well you know

ArthurPewty · 12/04/2011 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MarianneM · 12/04/2011 18:03

Spudulika

I wanted to say something about that but I thought it would invite anger and accusations of smugness etc. It's also hard to find the right words.

I think the pleasure babies get from being BFd is undeniable in terms of the skin to skin contact, the softness of the breast, the closeness, the reassuring familiar smell of the mother etc. That's also why I care about whether people BF or FF. I felt it was such a lovely experience for my DDs I feel sad that more people don't want to do it.

tiktok · 12/04/2011 18:06

Spud - you say "BF and FF are very different experiences for babies - they have to be because they're done so differently. "

This does not need to be the case. I would like to see ff done as if it was bf - skin to skin when possible, by one or maybe two main people when the baby is very young (less passing the baby round for people to have a turn - not good for the baby), responsively and watchfully so the baby leads, and other aspects.

Babies can enjoy feeding from a bottle very much - they enjoy the sucking and they enjoy the closeness, and we should celebrate that as well, and accept this as a valid, learning, social experience for the baby.

Just as with breastfeeding, bottle feeding is more than just a way of 'tanking up' the baby with nutrition. It is the centre of the baby's world when he is little - not just food and drink.

It is easier for a breastfeeding mother (when bf is going well) to do all the responsive stuff, etc, but very far from impossible for bottle feeders .

BobbiDazzler · 12/04/2011 18:08

You'd think all BF babies were content and lovely and that the bond between all bf'd babies and their mothers was just peachy keen, wouldn't you? Except women who BF still get PND and babies who are BF are still prone to reflux and colic and being whingy, unsettled and generally not that content.

Breastfeeding is natural and (should be) normal, yes, but I hate all this 'it is just soooo dreamy' guff. It isn't dreamy at all for a lot of women, especially in the first few weeks, and if more women knew this and knew to expect it to be hard and to expect to need help and this was seen as natural and normal, too, maybe more women would do it. Just a thought.

MarianneM · 12/04/2011 18:12

Bobbi

Spudulika was talking about the BABY's experience in her last post, not the mother's. The mother's experience has been discussed at lenght in this thread.

Spudulika · 12/04/2011 18:12

"FF babies comfort feed as well you know"

Babies like to suck. But there's a limit to how much formula you'd want to give them surely? Also what about the sort of sporadic comfort feeding that bf babies do - a few sucks here and there, a ten minute snooze, a bit more suckling. How would this work over a period of several hours with bottlefeeding? You'd end up throwing a lot of formula away and making up loads of bottles.

TikTok - agree that ff SHOULD be baby led and responsive. This is what my NCT teacher emphasised.

But I wonder how often this happens, given that for many mums who ff the inconvenience of making up bottles is offset by the fact that you probably do it less than if you're bf. I think for mums baby led bf combines all the most difficult aspects of bf and ff.

peanutdream · 12/04/2011 18:12

this is quite a nice article about that

i know what you mean about the babies point of view

i think that becomes more apparent as the baby gets older. you really start to see how much it means to them, something that surprised me

but you can be very attached, hands on etc ffing mum

tiktok · 12/04/2011 18:13

Bobbi that is true, and it is also true for bottle feeding.

The first weeks of any baby's life and therefore motherhood can be hard going - there are many ways it could be made easier, maybe not for this thread, but the fact remains it can be a struggle.

That's not to deny that some moments and experiences of being a mother-baby unit can be just lovely and sublime....these really do happen, even in the darkest days. As time goes on, these moments become more than moments, too.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 12/04/2011 18:13

Also disagreeing with spudulika... what about expressed BM from a bottle? It's still breast milk. What are the significant benefits to the baby? No, don't google it, what do you perceive these to be? Are these benefits just in relation to the format of the milk or the delivery of it?

Now, what about the disbenefits to the baby of being formula fed? Any significant ones there, particularly in relation to how it doesn't protect the child from allergies and illness whilst breast milk does?

And who on earth decides the 'ideal bond between mother and child'? Let me think who it could be... oh yes, that would be the mother - not a doctor, not a focus group and not some random poster on a chatboard.

BobbiDazzler · 12/04/2011 18:14

I thought I mentioned the baby's experience, too? Hmm

Whatever. I just think people make massive generalisations about both methods of feeding.

Spudulika · 12/04/2011 18:15

"Except women who BF still get PND and babies who are BF are still prone to reflux and colic and being whingy, unsettled and generally not that content."

Very true. They do get PND. Not as much as FF mums as a group, but they do get it. And sometimes it's made worse by bf difficulties, as I imagine ff mums with PND are driven lower by trying to care for a baby who is having problems with bottle feeding.

BobbiDazzler · 12/04/2011 18:16

That is bollocks, Spudulika. Sorry. it is just not factually correct.

Animation · 12/04/2011 18:16

Mixed feeding is perfectly fine - it was good enough for my three daughters - and apparently the majority do chose mixed feeding because it's a very sensible and practical option. Two types of food - the breast and formula - it can be mixed up!

BobbiDazzler · 12/04/2011 18:17

Why do I post on these threads? they make my blood boil. Apologies for being rude. Think I will bow out before my head explodes.

LaVraiVerite · 12/04/2011 18:25

Molly Baker writes at Playgroup with Sylvia Plath and is a freelance reporter for The Wall Street Journal and The Philadelphia Inquirer

Voici son opinion:

^I do not resent breastfeeding, my children, or my nearly perfect husband. I do resent the expectation that after carrying a baby for nine months, American women should surrender control for six more months.

Because it?s not just the physical and time commitments that breastfeeding requires (which at 6 to 18 hours a day is, no doubt, significant). Being a nursing mother overrides everything. It dictates what you do and don?t eat and drink, your sleep schedule and where you can go, when and for how long. It even holds sway over what you wear. For an entire six months.

If that weren?t enough, the real rub is what women give up psychologically during that time. There?s the illusion that you can return to any previously held status of equality at home or in the workplace, and that others? perception of you, your value, and indispensability will not be affected. Well, that notion is a four-ounce Avent bottle of expressed milk gone bad.

An entirely different, more compelling study was released just last month: You Can?t Be Happier than Your Wife: Happiness Gaps and Divorce. I know, sounds like complete common sense, but I love a good study by German experts in "economy and well-being." And here?s what they found: the happiness gap increased when the wife handled most of the housework. As they say in German, "duh." But they also discovered that unlike other benefits in a marriage, happiness cannot be redistributed between spouses. You can share happiness. And be happy for one another. But his happiness cannot become her happiness.

Its conclusions? "When spouses 'agree' on too unequal a distribution of welfare, this puts the durability of their marriage at risk... public policy should avoid giving spouses incentives that lead to diverging levels of happiness. Individual income and employment have been shown to be among the main determinants of happiness; policies that affect the division of labor inside households should keep this in mind."

In a word, be careful what you wish for. Blue-ribbon breastfeeding goals could in the extreme lead to increased lead to increased divorce, depression, and long-term damage to the delicate ecosystem of gender roles in our families, workplaces and society. At the very least, the effort sanctions the message to women that their children and domestic duties come first. For women and researchers for whom long-term breastfeeding is the answer, the question certainly needs to be asked: at what cost?^

tethersegg · 12/04/2011 18:26

Come and be a pirate with me, Bobbi Wink

niminypiminy · 12/04/2011 18:32

"Very true. They do get PND. Not as much as FF mums as a group, but they do get it. And sometimes it's made worse by bf difficulties, as I imagine ff mums with PND are driven lower by trying to care for a baby who is having problems with bottle feeding."

It's not true that BF mothers as a group have less PND -- it's the opposite, they have more.

"I think infancy should be as blissful as possible, and breastfeeding is part of what makes it lovely for babies."

But it's not lovely for all babies. I had one that refused, completely totally refused to bf, and didn't like the cuddly closeness. He was much later diagnosed as having an autistic spectrum disorder. Disliking close physical contact is common for babies who are (or will be later recognised as being) on the autism spectrum.

That's the problem with generalising. There are always exceptions, and the exceptions really do challenge the rule.

MilaMae · 12/04/2011 18:34

What utter tosh Spud and Marianne.

My babies loathed bf,totally loathed it.The constant fighting for food,sobbing mummy,constant hunger,constant stress and upset. The instant (and I do mean instant)they started having formula was the first time I saw bliss for any of us.

Feeding is only part of living with a newborn,a mother can do skin to skin any time she damn pleases.

"I think infancy should should be as blissful as possible"-oh you do you and what fuzzy film did you see that on.

Coping with a newborn isn't blissful for the vast majority of us,it's bloody hell on earth,hard work,sleep deprived,painful and an emotional rollercoaster particularly if you don't have the luxury of a 6 month babymoon.So on top of everything else we're supposed to be providing a blissfull infancy pmsl. How exactly?What if we're not,does that mean our babies will be damaged!!!!!!

Quit telling people how to parent.We all have strong parenting views about many aspects of parenting yet don't feel the need to describe how awful it must be for other people's children if things are done differently.We don't quote page long stats,scaremonger,patronise,obsess over other posters choices etc etc.

Jesus the show hasn't even been aired and we've already had a stat quote that filled my whole screen.

rickymummy · 12/04/2011 18:37

Can't believe I'm going to get drawn into this but...(draws deep breath)...

looking from a babies point of view, if breast is more comforting etc, why did my DS2, BF until 4 months, then mix fed (due to my health problems) point blank refuse a BF at 6 months and actually lean over and try and reach into my bag to find a bottle?

ArthurPewty · 12/04/2011 18:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok · 12/04/2011 18:39

"It's not true that BF mothers as a group have less PND -- it's the opposite, they have more."

The jury is well and truly out on this one - I know because I have researched this. The literature is absolutely all over the shop - definitions of breastfeeding vary from 'ever breastfed' to 'breastfeeding exclusively' to 'any breastfeeding more than x days'. As well as other stuff like rubbish controlling for variables.

The fact is we don't know - we can only speculate that if a mother wants to bf and her bf is going well, she is likely to be less at risk than a mother who wants to bf and her bf is not going well. This is because we know 'self-efficacy' (feeling competent and confident) reduces the risk of PND. For formula feeding mothers, we could speculate the same - if she wants to ff and it is going well, happy days. If it's going badly and she wishes she were bf, then her self-efficacy is low and she is more at risk of PND.

ArthurPewty · 12/04/2011 18:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok · 12/04/2011 18:41

Leonie - DFTT.

Please.

I did ask, downthread :)

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.