To think it will all kick off on here after this is aired?

[MsScarlett]

My mum just texted me to say that tomorrow there is a documentary on BBC3 at 9pm called, "Is Breast Best?".

I predict a bunfight!

xstitch, of course you aren't. You did your best by your DD!

Lying - you may not say it to their faces, but you are saying it here :)

The stats are in the Infant Feeding surveys - on the web if you want more details. The survey includes reasons given for stopping and they are almost all technical reasons like 'baby always hungry' or 'not enough milk' (non-tech reasons I would say are 'returning to work' or 'had enough of breastfeeding' though both of those figure, IIRC, as very minority reasons)...and these are aspects of bf which can often be resolved.

xstitch... BF/FF doesn't make you a failure nor an earth mother... it's just a method of feeding and as long as the child thrives, what else matters?

It's crap that you feel that you've failed, and as Tiktok says, you could perhaps do with some help to get over those feelings because they're not right at all.

Surely everyone should just do what they want - I could not care less if the woman next door wants to breast feed until her kid his puberty, my choice was to ff from the outset. Not because of any advertising - but because someone else can feed the baby a bottle.

I have no doubt that breast milk is best but there are clearly many things that force women to stop early (or not start at all). I persevered with DS1 for 4 weeks with a very unsupportive MIL (a nurse of the old school variety). DS lost more than 15% of his body weight in that time and I was a quivering, depressed wreck. He fed every hour day and night and cried in between times (of hunger I suspect). He was born by emerg section at 38 weeks and no-one ever suggested that my milk might be slow coming in. I only started to enjoy my baby when I moved to ff. DD was a breeze to breast feed, no practical or emotional difficulties and not anywhere near as demanding. DS2 stopped at 5 weeks (well mix fed) because he's insatiable and I simply don't have time to sit feeding him hourly which he required on bf. I have 2 other v young children who wouldn't eat at all if DS2?continued feeding like this! I would need a live in nanny, relatives close by or a non-working DH to continue bf at the rate he requires. Ff has again saved my sanity. Different strokes for different folks ladies!

Look, supporting bf is not to judge formula feeders. No one sensible thinks that how you feed is any reflection on how much you love your baby or whether you are a 'good' mother or not - I honestly believe it's just not the case that 'many' people say someone who does not bf does not love their baby. I have never, ever heard that anywhere.

I think I have come across 1 or 2 'feeding judgers' in my life! And several zillions of people who are not!

Tiktok... In that case I'll reword my post because whether a child is BF/FF matters not to me. It matters that the child thrives. I truly don't care about any other aspect.

It's dangerous how words can trip a body up, it really is and it's the reason I don't normally give any views on this subject other than 'method matters not'.

Are you a midwife, Tiktok? If not, perhaps you should be... you'd be a great advocate. :)

I don't think you should look at ff'ders as one homogenous group - i think there are distinct groups - those who try but give up (either becasue they can't feed or for other reasons) and those who never try - to tell the first group breast is best doesn't necessarily help as they presumably believe this as otherwise they wouldn't have tried - while the second group maybe need this message - or alternatively have heard this message but prioritise other factors.
For the first group it is a matter of support which isn't there imho but also you have to realise that some people prioritise the health benefits early on when they are a lot clearer but later on other factors become more prominent (convenience/wanting partner to be involved/returning to work/lack of enjoyment or pain etc) - for the second group- i don't know...education? making bf a finite option- do this for 6 weeks? highlighting other benefits (ease!)

But the guilt trip put on people is just horrible - its like the guilt of not giving birth naturally - its not the be all and the end all of being a mother

You may not like my opinion, spudwhatever, but it doesn't make me fake, false, insincere or lacking in frankness or candour or hypocritically ingenuous. (the definition of 'disingenuous')

You don't agree with my opinion. Which you are free to do. But what you are saying is that you do not agree with my opinion. You hold a different view. Therefore, because you do not agree with my view, I cannot possibly actually hold it. Therefore, because you disagree with me, I must be being fake in what I claim to be my view. That is the most arrogant thing I have ever read. It is breathtakingly arrogant in fact.

My view is my view. By all means disagree. By all means disagree strongly. But don't you dare suggest so arrogantly that because you don't agree with my view, I must be fake. And don't you dare throw words around that call me a liar because I dare to have a view that you deem unacceptable.

Its personal choice.

I actually have the opposite problem to most people with regards breast feeding. I fed with both my previous children BUT was told when i fed DS by the midwife that i over lactate. This was when DS was 6 days old and i was sat on my bed when midwife arrived and i had DS on one boob and a glass bowl under the other boob which was just flowing with milk. Midwife asked if this was normal and i said it was. I had been feeding DS for 10 minutes from one side and had collected 5oz from the other side just from dripping! DS had milk coming out of his nose and choked regularly! I had to wear 3 flannels folded up when not feeding and these had to be changed every half an hour as i soaked through them! Midwife said i was a COW!
After 2 weeks of being housebound and literally dripping milk everywhere i admitted defeat and gave up and midwife supported me.

With DD it was a similar story, i used breast cups and would get enough for a bottle feed whilst feeding from the other boob. I was wearning flannels as pads and could not leave the house or breast feed in public as i had to have a cup or something under the other boob and also when positioning DD i would squirt milk everywhere! I never expressed as midwife told me this would cause me to produce more milk and DD would feed then reflux it all back up and would choke whilst feeding and it would come out of her nose! I stopped again after 12 days!

Im due a baby in 28 days and am already leaking LOTS (4 pads per day).....mixed with clear colostrum is creamy milk and i have said i will feed for 2 weeks. After this i need my life back! SELFISH? yes probably BUT unless im different this time i cannot see how i can look after my other 3 DCs and cope with the excessive lactation!

With breast feeding i do think that anything is better than nothing BUT i have witnessed my sister have 4 babies and try desparately to feed and actually not produce any milk BUT with her fifth baby she managed to exclusively breast feed for 10 days and i was so proud of her!

The whole 'BF Campaign' would really have legs if people focused on stuff like cost benefit and the fact that you don't have the hassle of bottles/sterilising.

Have BF, FF and mixed fed my kids and with no 4 BF was just the easiest thing to do in terms of logistics. With number 3 FF was the easiest thing to do 'cos I was at work when he was 12 weeks old.

We are v.lucky to have the luxury of choice in this country, it is really dull to read the constant sniping from both factions. Whether you BF or FF shit happens, as long as kids are fed appropriately, grow and are loved, happy and healthy who gives a shit?

well I for one will NOT be watching the programme. I'd rather relax and watch other things.

I don't see the big issue...I think the choice is up to mother's to make...and them alone. Thank goodness there are options open to them!

One prime advantage of FF is that you know exactly how much your baby is taking. To a new mother, that's quite an advantage.

"Further on the NCT point whether or not NCT actually has information on its website was not really my point. At my NCT course the only information on feeding was on breastfeeding - ff was not an option - any questions were dismissed - there was no such thing as people who couldn't breast feed "

NCT courses usually have a breastfeeding class which is about breastfeeding. It's up to the group to decide if they want to talk about ff during the antenatal sessions and make sure it goes on the agenda. My NCT class involved a lot of discussion about ff - how to make night feeds easier, being responsive and feeding on demand when you're ff, equipment etc. The only thing it didn't cover was a demonstration of how to make up a feed and the teacher explained the reason for this is that parents should be shown one to one after the birth because when its taught in groups its not retained as well and it's too important not to do properly. We were also given an information sheet showing how to make up a bottle.

"To see formula companies banned from all advertising?"

Oh yes please.

"It wouldn't have changed my decision, nor that of the other FFers I know."

No - because you've been brought up in a society where formula and bottle feeding has a very high profile, partly because it's highly visible socially (which breastfeeding isn't) but also because of the saturation of the media with marketing which promotes the view that you can trust the formula companies with your baby's health, and that formula is very similar to breastmilk.

Most girls have been indoctrinated to see ff as the normal way to feed a baby from the first time they stick a plastic bottle in the mouth of their dolly when they start to play at being mummies.

But your dd (if you've got one) might feel differently about how she feeds her babies, if she doesn't spend her formative years being fed the message that formula is the way to feed babies.

Bonkerz - you have over-supply and it is a real nuisance :(

However there are several ways to cope better that don't involve bowls and leaking and dripping - a call to any of the bf helplines will bring you some ideas or you can google breastfeeding over-supply.

(Using breast shells - I think you mean this when you say breast cups? - is not a good idea. They can actually encourage over supply.)

"One prime advantage of FF is that you know exactly how much your baby is taking. To a new mother, that's quite an advantage."

And to a baby, and a baby's health, it's actually quite a disadvantage!

(Disclaimer - I am talking healthy, term babies here. We do not need to know how much they are taking, and knowing it is a drawback of ff to the baby)

"who gives a shit?"

I do, and I wish more people did. The vast majority of women in Britain FF. This may have implications on the nation's health in the long term. The fact that FFing is the norm reduces women's confidence in breastfeeding. It increases prejudiced attitudes to breastfeeding such as "breastfeeding is icky", "my breasts are for my husband"; people increasingly see breasts solely as sexual objects. It creates myths such as breastfeeding is difficult (it may be for some, but not for all!), time-consuming (you don't have to BF for hours after the initial few weeks), BFing has no benefit beyond the first 6 weeks/4 months/6 months (examples from MN) and so on. All the while women are subjected to loads of formula advertising.

I find this sad.

tiktok, they are cups that just sit over nipple, if i didnt have something there i would be drenched! Whats more of a disadvantage is being housebound and changing my clothes and flannels upto 6 times a day and when people visit i literally have to cover baby in a towel to latch on as milk sprays EVERYWHERE and i have been known to shoot milk across the room (much to my sisters amusement!) and baby gets covered and starts screaming which can make latching on a nightmare! lol

Yep - breast shells, not good for people with over supply, as I said :)

Over supply is indeed a nightmare and babies are often unhappy about it, too.

This is not the thread to go into it - there are many, many tricks and tips and ways to stop it happening or at least cope with the worst of it.

But because of the way breast shells work, they encourage leaking (they actively draw milk out - their original purpose was to draw out flat nipples) which is ok if you want to leak milk and 'catch' it, but not if this is already a problem.

"One prime advantage of FF is that you know exactly how much your baby is taking. To a new mother, that's quite an advantage."

Yes - unless your baby decides to take more or less than it says he or she ought to on the tin, in which case it'll be a constant source of worry.

"I have no doubt that breast milk is best but there are clearly many things that force women to stop early (or not start at all)"

I agree. And we should be asking ourselves what's going on in the UK that it's happening to such a disproportionate number of mothers and babies here compared to other developed countries in Europe.

"I'm absolutely pro-choice for women to feed as they will, as long as the baby is fed that is sufficient, it really is."

If you felt that there were any SIGNIFICANT benefits for babies in breastfeeding would you feel differently?

gosh! I was planning on feeding my baby hula hoops and crack cocaine.. could BBC made a doc about this versus breastfeeding?

I can't wait to watch this. I think the new series of docs on modern parenting is going to be very interesting.

And your point is, roisinanna? Or were you making a joke or summat?

Ah, rouisinanna, I get it!

You're saying we only need worry if mothers are going to feed their babies on drugs and junk food!

As they are not going to do this, there is no problem!

Funny?

tiktok - to me, as a new mother it was very reassuring to know how much my baby was getting. But yet you dismissed what I said as nonsense (I need a rolling eyes emoticom for you).

I wasn't happy BF'ing and neither was my baby. Good enough reason for me to switch...though I did try.

Thankfully I am strong enough in myself and confident in my decisions to know that I made the right decision for both of us.

Wanted to add to this discussion - am I the only person here who has pondered the quality of life issue for babies when it comes to feeding choices?

BF and FF are very different experiences for babies - they have to be because they're done so differently. BF tends to be much more 'baby led' than ff in my experience. I've always felt the experience of breastfeeding must be nicer and more satisfying for a baby than drinking from a bottle, which is why they want to do it when they're upset or lonely and not just when they're hungry. The skin to skin contact must be nice too.

And of course there's the milk itself. When else in life would we see it as acceptable to give, ONLY a highly processed, reconstituted food - one which always tastes the same. Can't imagine justifying this for any other group in society.

I think infancy should be as blissful as possible, and breastfeeding is part of what makes it lovely for babies.

[disclaimer: not saying you're horrible for not breastfeeding, just trying to widen out the discussion beyond the health issues and the emotional and social needs of adults]