To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

Nijinsky" I assume she has a very strict husband, little fun in her life, little courage to stand up for herself and little interest in woman's personal freedoms. "
So you would assume this about me? My husband is not strict infact encourages me to go out and a about,do my own thing,will watch the kids for me,to do my phd! I have alot of run in my life ( might not be running!) and i can certainly stand up for myself. Clearly wr have different views on freedom!
But again you will ignore his and rant about something else.

By the way i find my niqaab very comfortable and my abayah is not fitted to my shape because its not suppose to be!! And i lie wearing black. I have friend who wear grey,blue,olive green etc! Personal choice!!

Do you ever think how your ignorant views about me and women like me make me feel? No!
Momoverseas isnt muslim and has been mentioning things but you choose to ignore and bable on some more nonsense!

Seriously dont speak on my behalf or feel sorry for me i feel dont need or want your peity and i doubt many muslim women would!

As Nikahs aren't legally binding in the UK a man can have four nikahs and register one marriage, however untill he has a civil ceremony with one woman none of the wives are legally recognised as wives!

EricNorthmansMistress - I have been to quite a few Muslim marriages and heard about others. All the couples I have known of, do get legally married by law. It is true that the muslims I know have never considered this an important part of the marriage. It is seen as just paperwork and sometilmes happens on a different day to the religious ceremony. But it still happens.

'Muslims need to be divorced in a sharia court in order to consider themselves divorced. They could divorce through civil court but would still be married in their and their community's eyes.'

The law of the land is that a divorce needs to be done through the civil courts. You are not divorced unless you have the decree absolute.

'for a muslim it is the islamic marriae that makes them married not the reistry and many, includin myself dont feel the need for reistry.

therefore if i wanted to et a divorce how would the civil courts help me as i dont have civil marriae,'

Therefore you are not legally married in the UK if you are British - and 'married' here. It is not about you feeling the 'need' for registry, it is the law that you have to register the marriage for it to be legally recognised here, and for you to be able to claim the protection of the law should things go wrong. By not registering or undergoing the civil ceremony, you are merely cohabiting, you are not legally married.

I'm always slightly bemused that western women feel Muslim women are too stupid to decide for themselves what to wear, and demand we wear their clothing of choice......which of course is not oppressive at all oh no!

I've never dictated or demanded that anyone male or female wear what I feel is correct attire, I find it deeply shocking that taking away Muslim womens sartorial freedom is considered acceptable and in fact encouragede.

Is it because we are muslim and you feel we are less than you?

Is that why you feel we should not have the same freedoms as you do?

What's next?

I cannot see why anyone would choose to wear a burqa. Hijab I have no problem with, but a burqa is one of the most oppressive garments I have ever had the misfortune to wear. My db brought me one back from Kabul, and I cannot see the point in it.

I think the problem Fuzzy is the covering of the face - we communicate using our faces and the burqa is the equivalent to me of someone wearing a motorcycle helmet in public/the office. It just doesn't work.

Yes Nailak I would make those assumptions about you if I didn't know you and therefor could only judge from your appearance. Is this a surprise to you? Do you never consider what other people may think about your appearance? I do. I take care for example to look smart and businesslike when at work.

Having a different opinion from you is not ranting. Islam is not beyond question. Questioning it does not make a person racist. Saying so is as ridiculous as suggesting I am more feminist and radical because I am part Dutch - which would of course be racist, as Dutch people are a minority in this country.

Why is there such little similar vitriol addressed towards Muslim women in countries who are oppressed? Do you never think about issues like that at all? Why would you want to associate yourself with such oppression by wearing similar dress?

Fuzzywuzzy no-one is attempting to restrict your freedom in this country, other than yourself, if you choose to wear such a deliberately freedom restricting garment.

Also to be honest most of the time im wih women so my viel would not be on my face would be lifted up. When i go doctors/dentist/hospital appts/sure start/baby clinic if only women there i lift it up.

Why do you wear it mama2plusbump? What is going to happen to you if you uncover your face in public?

Do you not think it discourteous to men and in your specific example, male doctors, who have spent 7 years training and are provided by the state for your wellbeing, to make their job so difficult?

Scaryteacher
for muslims the islamic marriage is the marriage. Fair enough it's not legally recognised but the legal element is less important to some than the religious element. So plenty of people do not get legally married, in the eyes of the law they are co-habiting but in the eyes of god they are married. (In their view)

I was told by the british consulate in DH's country that my marriage would not be recognised legally in the UK because it was potentially polygamous. I assumed she knew what she was talking about but maybe not. I have never cared much TBH, not being religious myself and not having any assets to split if we got divorced.

Fuzzy - one can only assume that if you wear a burka that you have no interest in talking face to face to your fellow women - western women - because you're all covered up.

It was me who said it! Nope infact i dont give a monkeys what anyone thinkz abiut my clothing but i do care how i am as a person to others,but dress wisr no! Thank god i dnt have to dress business like far too annoyong for me!
And i never called you racist

I too can make assumtions but how you dress and your running but you know what i dont!
I really cant be bothered... This is a waste of time

Oh the person who wanted too see me on the trampoline and thiught it would be a youtube sensation...seriously? Get a life

I out of here and back to my opressive husband and my sad no fun life

rolls eyes

Clearly nijinsky you have lost the ability to recal what i told you yesterday, your like a broken cd player stuck on repeat regarding why i wear the veil!
I dont see male doctors unless i have too,and thosr who i have met are nice and understanding!
They have no problem

Im out

British muslims demand the freedom to wear what they wish, claiming a freedom enshrined in British law. Should they not then take more seriously other British laws, for instance laws demanding the legal registration of marriages and the illegality of bigamy. You cant pick and choose the ones you like.

Also much has been said here about the highly eduated british muslim women who CHOOSE total coverage. Perhaps they should consider that in those countries were extreme sharia law is enforced, and that generally goes hand in hand with burka wearing, then they would have very little choice in their life. And they would be most unlikely to have had the benefit of higher education.

mama2plusbump yep, sometimes people do have different opinions from you. I don't agree with what you say, I don't believe you justify it well in terms which go beyond the person and affect the basic human rights of women. I also feel you are complicit in condoning the appalling oppression of women in strict Muslim countries, and selfish not to care about them.

njinsky it wasnt me u was replyin to,

scary, why is this about leality? i have nikkah no reistry, explained that to tax credits, they said if you consider yourself married then we tick married,

neway thats not the point, the leality isnt the point, the point is shariah courts allow muslim women to et islamic divorces easily, and therefore uphold the rihts of women with this service.

without them many women would not beable to et an islamic divorce.
these women are not tryin to claim the protection of law, for them marriae is a reliious ceremony and act of worship.

there are many muslim women whose lifes would be worse of without the shariah courts as they would not beable to et islamically divorced or remarried.

would it be liberatin for these women if they couldnt et islamically divorced?

i may not be civilly married but i am islamically and that is more important to me, i dont see how a piece of paper would improve my life?

and i dont know how we are all manain to communicate on here without seein each others faces, or how people manae to use txts or phones without seein faces.

so you think it is ok to make assumptions based on appearances, therfore if i see a woman in shorts or whatever it is ok for me to say she must be promiscuous look at the way she dresses? i dont think that is ok tbh.

and most niqaabis wont be wearin veil all the time as when they are in mothers roups etc they would remove it.

Go google princesses noora university in riyadh!

'for muslims the islamic marriage is the marriage. Fair enough it's not legally recognised but the legal element is less important to some than the religious element. So plenty of people do not get legally married, in the eyes of the law they are co-habiting but in the eyes of god they are married. (In their view)'

So, all these pious and upright Islamic men who want their dp's to wear burqas do not actually legally marry their women then, but just live with them and maybe have others on the side as well? Having cake and eating it springs to mind.

Seems daft to me as well as there are many rights that come with the piece of paper that are worth having.

Nijinsky why dont you worry about the oppression women face here in the west? You worry far too much a out us oppressed muslim women!

If you are not legally married what happens if your DH leaves you? You know that legally and financially you are stuffed!

in saudi there are many women in unis, someone posted the stats earlier on, actually people from abroad move to those countries such as saudi, syria etc to study at uni...

why am i stuffed if he leaves me?

mama2plusbump because I'm an educated, socialised individual who has interests wider than the four walls which surround me.

What you say is discriminatory against men.

Engaging with the public only seems to be an issue when discussing the Muslim womans choice of dress 'Oooh she is not engaging with society at large...' when actually in real life the amount of times a perfect (sane) stranger has felt the need to speak to me on the streets has been zero!

I dont wear a face veil.

I have friends who do.

I recognise and engage with them perfectly well, even when out on the streets I can interact with them perfectly well. I recognise my friends when they're veiled too no problem.

I have actually been accosted by wierdos on the street, one mad man asked if I was a member of the BNP when I asked why he told me because I wore a head scarf, but he was so pleased he could see my face, my pretty face (he repeated this about ten times, then the bus arrive and I fled). Perhaps had I been wearing the face veil he would have left me alone...

Nailak - would you consider though making friends though with a western woman? I assume that if you chose to wear a burka have you have also chosen not to make friends with us women - because you can't do a face to face.