To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

lesley generally people who wear outward statements of religious identification are more aware of where they go and what they are doing. This isn't limited to muslims. I have a jewish friend who's husband won't eat out in restaurants because he wears a kippa and feels that other jews may therefore feel that he is either eating un-kosher or that the restaurant is kosher when it is not.

HHLimbo - I like the idea of a ban on complete obstruction of the face.

Theres been quite a bit of criticism on here about the way western women dress. I would say I dress mainly for comfort, utility and to fit in. What kind of message is a woman in her burka sending by her "choice" of clothing to other women? I make certain assumptions about people by how they choose to dress. If someone is scruffy, I assume they are a bit lax in the personal hygiene department and likely to be unemployed or in a low paid job. If someone is smart and businesslike, I assume just that. If I see a woman in a full burka with only a tiny slit for her eyes, I assume she has a very strict husband, little fun in her life, little courage to stand up for herself and little interest in woman's personal freedoms. Yes, she might be a very nice person if ever I got to know her, but that doesn't change the fact that she "chooses" to wear the most restrictive, forbidding and dehumanising garment known to mankind and not to care about how this makes her fellow woman, such as myself who is offended by such garments, feel.

MrsSnow I understand your point, but they are not just afraid of general censure. They are worried that any behaviour seen as forbidden may get back to their extended families, husbands, friends and neighbours.

MrsSnow, it's got nothing to do with emancipation. It's a stand against Islamicisation.

To those who wish to conflate the (Jewish) Bet Din or the RC church's annulment process via the Curia with Sharia law -- here's a snapshot of a debate on Sharia law in Canada. Former Ontario Attorney General Marion Boyd 'noted that some "participants in the Review fear that the use of arbitration is the beginning of a process whose end goal is a separate political identity for Muslims in Canada, that has not been the experience of other groups who use arbitration." Neither Jews nor Catholics have ever sought official sanction of the rulings of their marriage tribunals, whereas proponents of Sharia envisage it as a separate, officially sanctioned system for use by Muslims, with the same binding status as British law. In order to demonstrate their opposition to the introduction of Sharia law in Canada both Jews and Catholics agreed to the disbandment of their marriage tribunals in Ontario.

Sharia courts operate in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Bradford and Nuneaton. They are called 'Arbitration Tribunals' and their decisions are binding to those Muslims who 'choose' to use them. That means that women who are 'influenced' to use a Sharia court for (a legally binding) divorce must abide by the court's decision when it comes to custody of her children, and those families who use them must abide by their decisions when it comes to disposition of an estate with the female relatives of the deceased predictably getting shafted. Proceedings are not recorded and there are no precedents upon which to argue, no chance of appeal, no accountability to the British court system or to any authority in fact. The existence of these courts is an affront to British society imo.

The whole point of the western idea of a legal system is to have one set of laws for everyone in any given country, with the notion of equality under the law underpinning it. The point of Sharia law is to impose the interpretation of the words of the Prophet on all, with women treated as second class citizens, and interpretation basically left to anyone with a group of followers and a megaphone and an axe to grind against women or whatever bogeyman resides in the depths of their psyche.

Nijinsky, the burqa is such an important symbol because with it Islamists make a mockery of the values of the societies that allow it. They have a keen sense of irony, I'll give them that.

I have to go now, but will pop back later when I get a chance.

Oh I know that mathanxiety to insist on wearing it in the west is such a political statement of divisiveness.

Yes I should go now and do some stuff as well. But will be back later.

And I'm going running now...

don't go flashing your arse as you're running!

Mathanxiety: "That means that women who are 'influenced' to use a Sharia court for (a legally binding) divorce must abide by the court's decision when it comes to custody of her children, and those families who use them must abide by their decisions when it comes to disposition of an estate"
Could you clarify - 'must' according to who? The Sharia court? Or British law? Do you mean if someone went to a Sharia Court they would then have no further recourse to standard British law? That a decision made in a sharia court would stand if the claimant then went to a solictor, court and even the European court? And if a woman lost custody of her child in a sharia court agrement she would not then ever be able to go to court to get the decision reversed?

polyny is illeal? what is stoppin a man havin four nikkahs? 4 reistry may not be possible but that is not what makes muslims consider themselves married?

shariah courts are an emancipation for women as they can seek islamic divorce, that is what most of the courts work is, women seekin divorce, without this service they would be unable to divorce islamicaly there husbands and that would be a suppression as they would not beable to islamically et remarried accordin to their beliefs, those who are not worried about islamic rulins wouldnt o to shariah court.

without the shariah council if my husband is abusin me then there is no way for me to et an islamic divorce.

Mathanxiety your posts are intelligent and thoughtful. I agree with you very much and feel you have articulated well the discomfort with this which is often difficult to express.

I'm certainly too knackered to do it, but please carry on. It's good readin'.

A couple of things have jumped out at me from this thread:

'what ever you say, the islam excist and will last for ever, you want it or not.
we are getting their, just chill out'. You are getting 'there' in what way? I do not want, not will ever want to be Muslim, and I believe also that there are many who would not want to live under Islam, as we prefer democracy to Theocracy.

The manner in which women who cover are categorised as 'niqqabis' or 'hijabis'. They are people, individuals, not part of the herd.

I dress as I please, I do not wear make up as I cannot be bothered, and I wear flat boots as I can't bear heels, I feel no compunction to follow fashion, I dress to be comfortable and when working, professional.

I entirely agree with Math on Sharia law. There have been moves afoot since the late 80s to have separate Sharia courts running alongside UK courts for Muslims. Either you are subject to British law if you live here, or you leave.

Nailak - polygamy is illegal in the UK - a man is stopped from having 4 wives by the law. As for divorce - you can divorce using the UK courts - if you were to be divorced by a Sharia court, but not by a UK court, then you would be legally divorced and could not remarrry anyway. If you were being abused, then you could go to the Police - that is what they are there for.
(Have you got a problem with the 'g' on your keyboard?)

Sorry, typing whilst cooking - then you would not be legally divorced and could not remarrry anyway.

Scaryteacher - regarding divorce - Islamic marrige and legal marriage are not the same thing. Muslims need to be divorced in a sharia court in order to consider themselves divorced. They could divorce through civil court but would still be married in their and their community's eyes.

Likewise lots of muslims don't actually do the civil ceremony. Marriage in muslim countries isn't recognised as legal in the UK so if they were married outside of the UK they may never have legal marriage anyway.

Wow still going on!

Is your overseas marriage legal in the UK?
If you got married in another country and your marriage is legally valid in the country where it was performed, it is recognised as a legal marriage in the UK too.
(from registrars website)

If a muslim does not marry or divorce according to UK law, then they are not legally married or divorced.

Just as catholics who have been granted an annulment, (which would in theory allow their remarraige within the catholic church.) have to also obtain a legal UK divorce, so do muslims.

To remarry with just a religious separation granted is bigamy in UK law and thats a criminal offence.

I drove to a park in the centre of Edinburgh to run and during the drive, I saw one woman wearing full face burka accompanied by a man, getting into a car. Hideous garment - sorry. I hadn't thought about it covering the mouth. Hideous black colour and no attempt at styling the material or shaping it to the body - its just a cover and nothing else, isn't it? The man was wearing a robe type garment, but his was of a lighter material, seemed more closely form fitting and was a pleasant grey colour. And of course it ended at his neck.

Do Muslims ever think about how uncomfortable the full face covering burka (what is the correct term?) make women like me feel? I presume that the men whose wives wear such garments disprove of women like me and all of the oppressions that go along with women in countries where wearing such a garment is common.

scary teacher, is it illeal for a man to have four nikkahs ie islamic reconised marriaes and without reistry?

for a muslim it is the islamic marriae that makes them married not the reistry and many, includin myself dont feel the need for reistry.

therefore if i wanted to et a divorce how would the civil courts help me as i dont have civil marriae,

and even if i had civil marriae and islamic marriae i would need civil and islamic divorce before i was able to have another islamic marriae.

the only option would be for me to stay sinle for the rest of my life due to lack of shariah court in which to provide me a divorce.

and if you were divorced in shariah courts but not civil courts you could have an islamic nikkah

om njinsky thats like me sayin do you know how uncomfortable lycra shorts and crop tops make me feel!

people should chane their method of dress sue to what other people find comfortable?

i think the point is that a woman should be free to reveal as much of her body as she feels comfortable with.

Nailak, I had a Nikah and a civil ceremony, I got both an English divorce and I an Islamic one, the Islamic divorce was awarded me by an Imam, I went back to the imam who married us!

Most Muslim women I know who have been divorced go to the Shariah council for divorce, it would be far easier if Islamic marriage contracts were legally binding here, however I can understand the English law only alllowing a single marriage and wouldn't change that.

yeah thats what im sayin fuzzy the shariah council makes it easier for women to et divorces due to the lare amount of cultural imams who dont want to et involved in these situations due to community etc, and without it many woman wouldnt be able to et a divorce,

the fact if the marriae is leally reconised or not is irrelevant, it is the impact on the womans life that is relevant.

i dont know the law on polyny that was a question, if a man ot 2 nikkahs but no reistry would that be illeal since nikkah is not a lealy reconised marriae? if it is possible then there is nothin stoppin him

Its not though Nailak because running gear is not imposed on women by oppression anywhere in the world and no-one feels compelled to choose to wear it whenever they go out in public.

If this did not involve Muslim women, people would be suggesting that there was an extreme body dismorphia problem going on because of the need to cover everything but the eyes.