To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

MrsSnow my professional journal is full of adverts for lawyers in my jurisdiction to go and work abroad, mainly the Australia, Hong Kong and Dubai and the Middle East.

Civil law in France prevails. A choice to wear or not to wear head/face coverings is too often not a choice. These women NEED protection. Those who genuinely have choice and would like to wear have to respect the civil law protecting their more vulnerable.

It is like with underage sex. There maybe some "mature" 15 year olds who would like to have sex, but law needs to be clear and applicable to all. Their needs are considered lesser than the needs of other vulnerable youngsters who would be damaged by underage sex. (I hope I make this point clear. I am terrible when I am in a hurry.)

This is why I am against burkas (before anyone shouts I know it is about hijab, but the argument still applies):

"A man threatened to kill his cousin and harm her family after she decided to stop wearing the traditional Muslim headscarf, a court has heard.
Mohamed Al-Hakim, 29, allegedly phoned Alya Al-Safar to tell her she must die because of the ?shame? she had brought ? leaving her too afraid to leave the house.
He had already branded her family ?bitches and whores? because of her decision, the court heard.
Miss Al-Safar, 21, had stopped wearing the hijab a few days before the phone call.
She said that Al-Hakim?s mother, her aunt Mardhiya Al-Musawi, ?wasn?t happy? that she had stopped covering her hair ? a step she had been considering for more than two years....

(www.eutimes.net/2011/01/uk-muslim-woman-threatened-by-her-cousin-to-wear-the-hijab/)

Yep, women need to stand up to men behaving like that, and by "choosing" to wear the full burka and accept restrictions placed on them by men, all they are going to do is produce the same time and time again.

computermouse you criticise France but not Saudi Arabia?

computermouse - Most people are not saying that here. Most people are saying they don't like the burkha for various reasons, but they don't think it should be banned.

bemybebe you get a few strange people in every religion, however why take away rights from everyone just to 'emancipate' a few?

MrsSnow
"bemybebe you get a few strange people in every religion, however why take away rights from everyone just to 'emancipate' a few?"

"the few" presumably being Muslim men, who seem to be the only ones benefitting from the acceptance of the burka.

lesley33 in ideal societies there will be no ban on burka, swastika, hammer and sickle (did you know that communist symbols are banned in some countries and you can be stopped for openly displaying them?), etc.

our societies are not ideal and then the citizens debate and vote on what is acceptable and what is not... France chose its way, UK may choose a different way. time will tell whos choice was right in order to promote an overall free and tolerant society.

in democratic societies you are free to express your views and abide by the law.

i am not sure why you are so upset computermouse

i am actually rather upset that in the uk one does not have the right to remain silent in its basic and pure form. i was livid when it was removed and demonstrated against it. i will not be going out to demonstrate for the dubious (in my mind) right of muslim women to choose to wear a bin liner.

tbh If they banned the veil in the UK, I think it could really backfire and help to radicalise more Muslims.

i made my point by the example of underage sex legislation. i think it is fair.

mrssnow i thought i made my point by the example of underage sex legislation. i think it is fair.

nijinsky perhaps muslim men do need emancipation .

I am simply saying that for France to take away the right of women to wear what they want is prescriptive. It is unfair. It may not be what people want to see but if women want to have that distance then allow them to do so, in the same way French beaches allow women to go topless etc.

bemybebe I've not seen your post, let me go and find it

Muslim men in the UK seem to have it rather easy. They can still be good enough Muslims while doing things which are strongly discouraged, such as drinking and having non-marital sex. Women OTOH seem to have to abide by far stricter standards. Why on earth do they tolerate such misogynistic men? Why on earth don't they just stand up to them? What sort of message are you giving to men from your culture when you trip about outside in a burka with all but your eyes covered?

mrssnow sorry, i thought you are addressing me...

i think that the right of a mature 15 year old to sex is undermined by the right of another 15 year old, a vulnerable teenager, to be protected from it. i know it may be too simplistic, but it is a best analogy i thought of.

sorry really have to go now...

Bemybebe Re underage sex, I understand what you are saying. However I still feel to ban an item of clothing is going too far. The time and money spent on bringing and enforcing this law could be spent on projects to help those women in the minority who are forced to choose. However for the women who are not forced and who have chosen this is very unfair on them. To be honest with you in my life I've only met women who have chosen to do so, going against family wishes and in some cases not even having husbands.

nijinsky in every society people exist who operate on double standards. Men who drink/gamble or whatever aren't being honest with themselves or the other people in their families. Generally those types have weaker religious bonds and hold on to cultures that contradict Islamic accepted views and that is how they chose to live. Neither I, nor my husband, live like that.

Nijinsky - I suspect that like with domestic abuse, if the women DO feel mistreated and disrespected by controlling misognistic men they will probably feel they have no choice but to conform and keep quiet about it.

Bemybebe Re underage sex, I understand what you are saying. However I still feel to ban an item of clothing is going too far. The time and money spent on bringing and enforcing this law could be spent on projects to help those women in the minority who are forced to choose. However for the women who are not forced and who have chosen this is very unfair on them. To be honest with you in my life I've only met women who have chosen to do so, going against family wishes and in some cases not even having husbands.

njinsky, are there a lot of muslims where you live? because here they are fully interated, there are a few teachers wearin jilbaab at the nursery, staff aat the ps and pharmacist, in the council offices etc, it is normal, you will see when you inshallah come here, noone bats an eye, there are also many muslim women who dont wear jilbaab, culturally it is not the norm and in south east asian cultures who make up the majority of muslims in uk, jilbaab is not worn in those countries, it is mostly the youner eneration who choose to wear it.

i dont see how me wearin a jilbaab benefits my husband or this imainary muslim community which i am not a part off, or dont percieve myslef to have a peer roup that are muslim, and certainly didnt when i chose to start wearin jilbaab. the benefits are to me. i feel more comfortable, more confident, and more respected and juded for my personality, not my dress.

as for the issue of kids wearin hijab, kids dont have to wear hijab, some wear it as all kids like to emulate adults and dress in clothin percieved as adult, such as hih heels etc and for them it is fun and they want to, another reason may be that their parents want them to et used to wearin it radually. personally i would leave it up to my dauhters to choose when they want to wear it, and if they do, as i believe there is no compulsion in reliion and thins should be done due to personal choice and understandin and not bein coerced or forced.

i do know a lot of muslim men drink and stuff, as a lot of muslim irls do aswell at uni etc and a lot their parents know they do aswell, but they are not so obviously muslim so you cant tell when you are out!!!

in my clubbin days there were many muslim irls who it was normal for them to o out party, et off with blokes and the rest of the stuff njinsky attributed to muslim men and aain no one blinked an eyelid.

in fact most people have it easy in uk, not just muslim men.

the men who have wifes that wear niqaab are probably not the same ones who o out clubbin, and the women whose husbands wear thobe and have lon beards are probably not the same ones who o out clubbin.

Its not a ban on an item of clothing, its a ban on complete obstruction of the face.

Animation "Nijinsky - I suspect that like with domestic abuse, if the women DO feel mistreated and disrespected by controlling misognistic men they will probably feel they have no choice but to conform and keep quiet about it."

You know that, I know that, but we have had the benefit of an extensive and non-segregated education and high levels of socialisation with many people outwith our immediate families. However Europe progressed from middle aged restrictions on women, I see no reason why Islam cannot, with the addition of the availability of information through multi-media.

MrsSnow "and in some cases not even having husbands"

How terrible! I don't have a husband either. Is this considered the worst thing that can happen to a Muslim woman?

Polygamy is illegal in this country. It doesn't really seem to cause Muslims that much distress. Why is the burka considered of such great importance? Is it because it is such a potent symbol and tool for the control of women?

Most of the muslim women I know do wear the hijab. And most are worried at the idea that the community may see them doing something that is forbidden e.g. going into a pub.

nijinsky I was trying to point out that women without husbands (without any opinions one way or the other) are choosing to wear a burkha/niqab.

As for muslim women without husbands, lots of women don't have husbands and lots of women do. Either way I wasn't commenting on that.