To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

Yes HH, it can be challenged depending on your cultural background. If my husband tried to force me to wear a Burka, my family would not allow gim to.

It dpeneds on what cultural and familial background you come from. Please remeber that Muslim people are all different and have different cultural identities.

him not gim, don't know who gim is lol.

And remember there are lots of different ways of making people conform. The Muslims I know get pressure from their community to conform. For example, one woman I know does not wear the hijab and is far more liberal with her DD dress as well. Many of the local Pakistani women do not let their daughters play with her dd's.

Similarly I know muslims who have been pressurised into marriage with someone they hardly know. Again not a strictly speaking forced marriage, but not a freely chosen one either.

I think this pressure to conform seems to bde a masive influence where I live.

I remember a Muslim headteacher in the news who refused to let pupils wear the burkha. Her argument was that if one child wore it, there would be pressure for other muslim girls to wear it.

I have to I'm pretty confused to why people are assuming that KSA is a eutopia for muslims. It is not.

To mummyoverseas, yes it is sad you can't practice as a divorce lawyer, however if you moved to an EU country you may still have the same restriction based on a lack of local qualifications or language skills.

With regards to voting, for women voting is a birth right and as such in other muslim countries they do vote. KSA is doing it's own thing.

Muslim women drive in Pakistan, Malaysia, India in fact in lots of countries. It is just KSA who have decided it is ok for women to be driven around by male drivers rather than drive themselves. Why I don't know.

As for Sharia law in Britain, its no more applied that Jewish law. Jews have rabbinical courts in session, settling personal disputes, divorce and other issues. In the same way muslims have small scale court rooms for men and women to apply for divorces.

And in case you hadn't all guessed I am muslim, I don't wear a burkha, but I do not believe that banning it is the way forward for anyone.

mumoverseas are you in Saudi Arabia? Are you telling me you are not allowed to drive a car while over there? Christ!

Thank you for the link on Muslim women on sport Computermouse. Heartning but saddening at the same time. "Saudi Arabia" bottom of the list and FIFA sticking to its ban on head coverage, thankfully. Why on earth can't Iran relax its requirment to wear head coveage for the duration of a football match, for goodness sake?

Can anyone tell me why no-one cares if western women like me are offended by women wearing the full burka in our streets, yet Muslim men's concerns are afforded far greater consideration in this country?

HHLimbo - good question.

MrsSnow "To mummyoverseas, yes it is sad you can't practice as a divorce lawyer, however if you moved to an EU country you may still have the same restriction based on a lack of local qualifications or language skills."

No, it is perfectly possible to practice as an international lawyer in many overseas jurisdictions, as long as you are qualified in a recognised jurisdiction.

mumoverseas I hope you enjoy your time in the UK .

I understand your sentiment. Coming from a communist country I also correct people who think we (citizens of that country) never had fun because of ... (a long list of things we did not have/did not do). I always corrected them that 'normal people' always found a way to go around the rules and have essentially a good life. It it NOT to say that the regime was oppressive and I am violently against it, the laws were unfair, elections rigged and the proclaimed freedom of speech was a total fallacy.

It is just like my grandparents' memeries of the IIWW. They were in their teens and 20s, fighting the Nazis and lost many friends, but in the end they saw the positive sides of their lives and were happy (especially on Victory Day).

This just shows that human spirit can survive the most appalling regimes/oppression/trials, not that this hideous regimes/etc are somehow not so hideous.

nijinsky apologies I did not realise that divorce law is now international law

It it NOT to say that the regime was not oppressive

Yes Sharia courts are just like jewish courts - I don't know how many times I have heard this argument. But the difference is that sharia law directly discriminates against women and so they are at serious risk of getting a poor deal in things such as divorce.

nijinksky, yes, I live in Saudi Arabia and have done so for over 5 years. I am not allowed to drive a car here as that is the law. Not just for Saudi women, but westerners too. I have to cover up when I go out in public. I do not wear the burka but I do wear an abaya and a headscarf (am forever getting shouted at by mutawah (religious police) to cover hair as I am blonde.
I can't have bacon or alcohol (just done a HUGE tescos shop full of 'banned' items for my UK holiday)

I have many muslim/Saudi friends and speak a little arabic. I therefore like to think I know a little bit about how life is here

I could practice law in many other countries but clearly my services are not required here as they don't tend to divorce a wife, just get another. The men are allowed up to 9 (I believe) wives although DH really can't understand why they would want more than one

MrsSnow you are being delibetely obtuse. You obviously know perfectly well that international companies frequently employ lawyers qualfied in foreign jurisdictions. But presumably Saudi Arabia offers a conversion course for those less commercially minded lawyers? Is this a problem when male lawyers are concerned?

bemybebe but Eastern European people did something about their oppressive regimes. I always think a country more or less gets the government and legal system its people deserves. If you accept being treated as a second class citizen and do nothing about it, then thats whats going to happen. Just don't expect me to admire you as a human being for it.

mumoverseas sounds unbearable. How can you be shouted at by religious police to cover your hair if you're already wearing a headscarf?

nijinksky "I always think a country more or less gets the government and legal system its people deserves."

100% agree with you on this. Also why I alway try to persuade my friends back home to fight for further changes and not just accept what is so 'kindly' thrown our way.

Love your name btw

nijinksky I'm a bit naughty and don't always wear it on my hair, normally just over my shoulders as it is a bit of a pain so just cover up when I see mutawah heading my way. (bit of a rebel me)

And also sharia courts might procribe stoning, or forced amputation of limbs. It really is a barbaric and completely outdated system of law.

mumoverseas 4 is the max number of wives that any man is allowed to have at one time.

With regards to women getting a divorce, my parents met in London, got married in London and subsequently divorced in London too via the English system and via the Sharia system.

I really don't know why people feel that the Sharia system is going to take over the English legal system. Yes there are the 'dial-a-mob' types who threaten everyone with Sharia in the UK but honestly most muslims yawn at them.

nijinsky I do not like how KSA is set up, runs or functions. I imagine if they could be more open every angle then this would not be a problem for women. However I was merely pointing out that even moving to another EEC country could cause a lawyer problems.

Yes I do know a little bit about Jewish law. And your point is?

thank you bemybebe but I'm half named after the racehorse as well as the ballet dancer!

HHLimbo Sharia law is unable to modernise and encompass change very well, and is enforced mainly by non-legally qualfied "clerics". I guess it would be a bit like if a western european country had a system purely based on the ancient canon law of the Roman Catholic church, instead of taking influences from various legal systems and inventing new principles too.

still 3 too many for DH

mumoverseas - thanks for sharing this - and good for you! :) Are these religious police a bit intimidating though?