To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

HH there is no need to be defensive, I was just stating that it is not so alien in this culture the either. It has at some point been a part of English culture. Yes culture has moved on, but at a pace that the people here felt comfortable with.

What has human rights got to do with it? Now I'm confused.

Again, LDN, you really are focusing on the wrong area if you want to challenge subjugation of women.

Why so little about denying women education in some strictly Muslim countries, and applying Sharia law so strictly that rape is blamed on women, adultery is an offence punishable by death, etc.. Why campaign for the right to wear a burqa and not basic human rights such as these?"
What about women not being able to leave the house without a male 'keeper', not being allowed to drive, etc? Why are you not protesting loudly and denouncing these terrible and oppresive rules?

LDNmummy you are rather restricted in your thinking. I wear wedge sandals because I'm short. Which also has implications in the workplace. I don't wear "sharp" high heels at all. I am sure I am not that unusual.

I don't drink either, and I've never slept around. Pity I'd be considered "unpure" under Muslim terms for wearing shorts and going running, because otherwise I sound a lot more pious than many actual Muslims.

High heels makes women taller, a more imposing presence, more able to look men straight in the eye and not feel intimidated.

before I put kids to bed, just one last comment on Saudi women and education. A colleague that DH works with (a Saudi) is getting married next month. His wife to be is mid-way through a degree in Busines Studies and was going to give it up as she is getting married however he has encouraged her to carry on with it and finish her degree. Not ALL men deny their wives the chance of an education.

Animation "As a side note I think there are many good things we can learn from each others' cultures. In Morocco - the men have a lovely warm way of greeting each other - they embrace and then touch their own heart. A lovely gesture I thought."

I have to say I didn't feel entirely comfortable there. However, with all this talk of nuns, many Moroccans wear a garment which was copied from Catholic monks several hundred years ago and adopted by them. I can't remember the name of it but it is a type of thin robe.

But HH I have not ignored that. If you read waaaaaay upthread, I put across my views on the Burka as something I am against. I have also stated that there are extremist states and they are not only in the Middle East.

It has not been relevant so far to go so in depth, we have not been talking about Middle Eastern culture generally but rather the Burka. If we had been talking more about Middle Eastern culture generally then I would have put my views forward on these topics too.

We are having a discussion, why should I denounce and protest loudly about anything? This is not Speakers Corner and those issues are not what we have been talking about for the most part.

Just because I am not talking about how horrid it is in Middle Eastern countries does not mean I am ignorant on the complexities of womens rights in extremist Middle Eastern states.

Yes and burkas are as natural as wearing a paper bag on your head.

So sad, that some people in this country wish to defend freedom, but not to anyone who doesnt already have it.

mumoverseas don't worry. I responded to your comment being sad that people do not understand the Middle East.

"I am saddened that you do not recognize that strict woman-only dress code, practice of arranged marriages, ban on driving, ban on voting and being voted into the office, having to have a MALE guardian, forcing primary responsibility as a homemaker on a woman and denying her equal opportunities in the work place is nothing short of gender apartheid, even if majority of women agree to it."

I understand that Middle East is not homogenous and I am sorry if it came out this way, it was not at all intended. However, my remark stands. Saudi is an example of the society where islamic laws prevail.

LDN: "I put across my views on the Burka as something I am against."

Thanks, good to hear that!

"LDNmummy you are rather restricted in your thinking. I wear wedge sandals because I'm short. Which also has implications in the workplace. I don't wear "sharp" high heels at all. I am sure I am not that unusual."

nijinsky my point does not mean that I think ALL western women wear high heels, my friends and I certainly don't. But they are an invention of western culture and a woman in high heels is considered more 'ladylike' and beautiful IYSWIM. It is more common in western culture to wear high heels than anywhere else.

"High heels makes women taller, a more imposing presence, more able to look men straight in the eye and not feel intimidated."

They also cause serious problems to your feet, spine and general physical structure when worn on a long term basis.

but you cant run in heels or be able to move freely. And it throws out your hips and back. So unnatural."

But you western women aren't compelled to wear them every time they go out in public.

Are you telling me that Muslim women all wear flat shoes with their burkas?

"LDN: "I put across my views on the Burka as something I am against."

Thanks, good to hear that!"

Actually this is really rude, so if I wasn't against it then what HH? Isnt everyone entitled to the right to wear what they want, however misguided their reasons may be in your's or my opinion?

I think you should be able to wear what you like. I am not an expert on islam and the wearing of the veil etc although I have read the koran several years ago and the burqa is not a requirement so it should be optional. I quite like seeing it though it is a reminder that the world is not all about us and our culture it is interesting and adds to the diversity we all need to embrace as it is here to stay whether you like it or not so better to accept than reject

"They also cause serious problems to your feet, spine and general physical structure when worn on a long term basis."

Well actually wedge sandals rest your achilles tendons and put them under far less strain than flat shoes. A small heel is actually quite good for your legs, feet and tendons as long as you get the stretch from not wearing shoes or wearing slippers at some point during the day as well.

But if Muslim women never get the chance to run, then their achilles tendons will never be put under that kind of stress, so I'm not surprised you are unaware of it.

What sports and recreations are popular amongst Muslim women? What is the preferred method of exercise and promoting good health?

No, many Islamic women wear heels, it is their choice.

And Western women are not made to wear heels but there is alot of pressure on women here to be the commercial ideal of beauty. The high number of women with eating disorders makes this very evident. There is a pressure to conform to a western idea of beauty and heels are very much a part of that. Just as Burka's are an ideal in other cultures. It works both ways IMO.

bemybebe sorry didn't comment on that point earlier. I am saddened about the ban on driving as it is very inconvenient for me living so far from the nearest supermarket. I am returning to the UK tomorrow night and can't wait to get into my car and drive to the supermarket (and stock up on bacon and alcohol ). I am also saddened that there are some arranged marriages and women can't vote and some (not all) women need a male guardian (depends on family). I am also saddened that as a british catholic I cannot celebrate easter or christmas here and as a family lawyer who specialises in divorce, I cannot practice law here. However, I knew that when I moved her so have to live with the law of the land as it were.

However, the point I was trying to make, is that it is not always as it seems. I have many muslim/saudi friends (male and female) and they are not all forced to cover up/give up careers etc. of course some are, but it would be wrong to assume that everyone is treated the same way.

For those who are part of the muslim community: What is an appropriate and acceptable way to react, if a man is trying to make his partner wear the burka, or limit her freedom in another way?

Would you challenge him, would you ask another man to challenge him, would it be considered inappropriate for anyone to say anything?