To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

The muslim women I know and fierce and proud and not shy in the least. They have full and active sex lives with their husbands and enjoy dressing in sexy lingerie and all the rest. However they have been brought up to believe that sexuality is only to be shared with your husband and as such they prefer not to attract attention from other men.

Actually that's not even true - some women are like that, but I know lots of young women who adore getting attention and having boyfriends and looking sexy. Not all muslim women think the same, unsurprisingly.

What about women not being able to leave the house without a male 'keeper', not being allowed to drive, etc? Why are the muslim community not protesting loudly about these terrible and oppresive rules? Why are they not campaigning for the PM and their religious leaders to challenge the saudi's on their crimes against their own people?

HHLimbo

I'm not a burkha supporter, I'm a freedom supporter.

Why do Muslim men not wear the full face covering burka? The type of garment is, after all, not untraditional in the Middle East.

Why do all the strictest rules only affect women?

ENM: why do you only support the freedom of men but not women? Do you agree that the things I have described above are terrible abuses?

That link of yours is sad reading, Slightlymad72. And also stupid and profoundly unimpressive.

To say that women need the veil because they bear the brunt of the bad behaviour of men is appalling.

Lesley no need to apologise , we are all different anyway. I do think bra's are an opressive form of western culture but that is my view, not everyone's. I know what you mean about the smaller breasts thing and understand why you made that assumption, I always wished mine were smaller lol, would be nice not to have guys staring at them all day long.

Bemy no offence taken. I understand what you are saying. Even being brought up in Britain, that does not mean my culture is far away and I do still live with its expectations of women. Lebanese culture is more liberal than people expect. Yes when I am with my Arabic family, I cannot just leave the house anytime I want with whoever I want, but this is not as extreme as people think. My sister has been raised in Lebanon and is very happy, dresses how she likes (very westernised actually) and has a much more active social life than me. I have lived in the confines of my Lebanese culture even in Britain. Being in another country does not remove its influence. Plus, my Mother's culture is West African but almost exactly the same as my fathers as West African culture is VERY traditional and contains many Islamic based elements. I live with it and understand it but my family is not extreme. It all depends on where you are from in the Middle East IMO. My entire family does not reside here and some of my siblings have grown up in a completely Arabic household, their lifestyles are exactly the same as mine.

I also have alot of friends who live in the Middle East and they are happy and do not feel opressed. In countries with a Taliban presence for instance, things would be VERY different.

Computermouse - absolutely.

To be fair, there are some big misunderstanding on here by whom I presume are Muslim women regarding western women, which is all the more disappointing if they live in the UK.

So far I've heard that western women lower their gaze just like the Koran dictates when jeered at by men.

And that women only wear bras in order to be attractive to men.

Yeah, right. Personally I dress more to do outdo other women. Showing off my chest to men does nothing to enhance my life in any way, hence I don't do.

Eric - I'm wanting to get to the root of why Muslim wear the burka and non muslim don't , so therefore I ask the direct question - not to be rude or provocacative - but because I want to understand. I am aware that this subject remains taboo to some extent , but the burka is a VERY extreme cover up garment - the likes of which I don't understand.

Why do you think women chose to go to the extreme of wearing burkas to completely cover up - has it got nothing to do with warding off mens' voracious gaze?

Thanks Mathanxiety, that's an excellent tip with the approaching summer

HHLimbo

That's a straw man argument. That's not what is being debated and it tends to make debates very dull and hard to follow if people keep sending them off on tangents. I advise you to start a new thread if you wish to debate the general islamic response to wahaabism in Saudi Arabia.

LDNMummy I'm really not understanding what you are talking about with regard to bras. I'm an A/B cup and very pert. I don't need a bra. I wear a very thin cotton one which has no support or wiring whatsoever for comfort because otherwise some of my tops would be see through without it. I don't ever do anything to enhance the size of my breasts because if I were single and looking to attract men, I'm confident my face and the rest of my figure would do it for me, along with my pesonality, and I also cannot abide "boobs men" as I stereotype them, rightly or wrongly, as being thick, boring and twattish.

Is this what you are getting at at all?

Thank you for the links (and good posts) earlier mathsanxiety - I read them all and found them very interesting.

I also found it worrying, at the level of non-intergration, perhaps it is a ghettoisation of some areas on cultural grounds, and the way this affects their thinking.

Am I wrong in thinking that there was a time in the history of England when women of 'respectable' and religious standing used to cover their hair or wear thin viels to be modest?

I'm sure that is has definitely been the case in Italy's history.

bemybebe sorry, I did not deliberately avoid any question aimed at me with regard to careers in Saudi, I simply didn't notice it. I will go back and re-read thread once I've got DC to bed and will then respond.

nijinksky The men in Saudi are very 'touchy-feely' too and I found it rather odd at first, bearing in mind that husband and wives are not supposed to hold hands in public.

ENM: I think it is directly relevant to the OP actually! But I am not surprised that some people would like to avoid difficult questions.

Why do I feel they do? I don't really know, not knwoing any niqabis personally. There are a few who have posted on this thread and who have given their views very eloquently.

I suspect it comes partly from nkaila's view that men are more visually turned on than women. I don't agree with this but it's a prevalent view. Therefore modest dress covers more on a woman than on a man. I suspect it's also because it exists - there are degrees of niqab indeed and those women who want to take covering to the extreme can want to go to the ultimate extreme - which is a burkha. The principle is about being 'pure' by keeping your sexual attributes for your husband/wife only - so the more you cover up, the purer you are. Again, not a POV I agree with, but I can see the logic.

There is also an attitude in islam that all muslims should aspire to be the best muslim they can be, but that allah will accept the best they can do. So for example my DH drinks 9.5 months of the year. He would like to never drink, he thinks that is better than drinking, but he believes allah accepts his best which is to abstain 2.5 months of the year.

If he found not drinking to be easy, he would do it. Likewise daily prayers (which he doesn't do) - if they fitted into his life, he would do them. So women who believe that niqab is the best they can achieve, and also are able to achieve it (don't work outside the home etc) will do it. It's a muslim mentality.

LDN - yes, Europe has come a long way both on human rights and in many other ways like technology etc. What is your point?

mumoverseas "nijinksky The men in Saudi are very 'touchy-feely' too and I found it rather odd at first, bearing in mind that husband and wives are not supposed to hold hands in public"

I know; I'm a total hag fag and there were so many really attractive men, some even holding hands in Morocco, I was quite delighted, I didn't know where to look!

nijinsky my point was from way upthread when there was a bigger point being made that there are elements of western attire that are subjugating of women and actually serve a purpose more for appealing to men than helping women. High heels was another example. My point was that bra's give a false ideal of the look of natural breasts and do not actually serve the purpose many believe they are for (keeping breasts from sagging).

Or something along those lines lol, can't recall my exact word's anymore

As a side note I think there are many good things we can learn from each others' cultures. In Morocco - the men have a lovely warm way of greeting each other - they embrace and then touch their own heart. A lovely gesture I thought.