To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

Thanks Mumoverseas. It just grates me when all this talk goes on about my culture by outsiders who know next to nothing about what the Middle East is actually like.

I know Lesley, I was aiming it at the comments where people talk about the Middle East as if it is all one large state full of opressive men and Burka wearing women who are subjagated anymore than women in the west.

Mathanxiety I funnily enough had a conversation about this with my father when I was much younger. I was talking to him about my future and when I would get married. We happened across this topic because, I, having been brough up in England, had heard about this happening in the Middle East and was really apalled. He was frank with me and said that it does happen but in our Lebanese culture it was very frowned upon and laws were being brought in to stop this practice. It is NOT AT ALL as common as people think in places like Lebanon and is considered to be incorrect and distasteful. People who do this are uneducated and small groups who live in tiny villages in the most rural parts of Lebanon.

Also, men having more than one wife is also not considered a good practice and for that reason my generation do not have this type of marraige anymore.

But again, I am talking about Lebanon. I am trying to illustrate that you cannot put the entire Middle East in a box, it is far more diverse than that. Thats why it has seperate countries and different native cultures maybe??

Goodness, sorry about all the spelling mistakes i am trying to run out now.

Why is there so much outcry about France banning face covering in public and so little about denying women education in some strictly Muslim countries, and applying Sharia law so strictly that rape is blamed on women, adultery is an offence punishable by death, etc.. Why? Why campaign for the right to wear a burqa and not basic human rights such as these?

To me, its the same type of brain washing that suicide killers are subjected to.

Also gay rights?...

Eric - I ask the question - are Muslim men very voracious?

If I am to understand it, on this thread, Muslim women wear burkas to protect themselves from mens' gaze. Non muslim women don't do this - they don't cover themselves up because they are not threatened by the mens' gaze and so don't need to create such a strong boundary.

Is the root of the problem, therefore, that Muslim men are particularly voracious?

"LDNMummy I guess this is the post address to me amongst others"

Actually I don't think it was. Maybe the Dubai issue was and you can ask all the 'experts' you like, but general cultural tolerance outweighs these laws greatly. One of the reasons for this is that Dubai is much more multicultural than people realise as it is a business and commerce centre of the world. It would not be good for Dubai to isolate people from other countires who will boost the economy. Also, I get my information from people who live in Dubai. There is even a relatively good tolerance of homosexuality based on a 'don't ask don't tell' relationship between the members of the general public. Men live together as 'housemates' and whatever they do behind closed door's is left to them.

And I think you'll find that some fundamentalist Christians could preach violence if they wanted to. Many are very close to it, and there are texts in the Bible that could easily be interpreted as incendiary. You only have to look at the track record of the Church to see that in past centuries non-christians, even the wrong kinds of christians were tortured and killed for their faith and it was justified as God's will. Women were subjugated, had no rights until relatively recently.

If you push too far one way, you will create a back-lash.

nijinsky i am anti burka or other face covering for reasons i have already stated but if the hajab is worn of a woman's on free willing then i see it as no different than women choosing their hair styles or men wearing baseball caps.
i would prefer that they didn't feel the need to wear it but it in no way compares with the full covering of the veil.

I do really dislike it when i see a child wearing a hajab as even if it is done for religious reasons there is no call or a female muslim to cover until puberty as see it as early brain washing of them to do what is expected.

LNDMummy please take it the right way what I will ask you. I wonder if you were so defensive of "your culture" if you actually lived day in day out in 'your' country and 'your' culture.

I am British but not born and raised here. I moved when I was an adult. I have experienced 'my culture' not from short visits to my family but by living and comparing the life there and in the UK. (I was headhunted.) I meet a lot of my compatriots who have very selective or no real memory of 'our culture'. They are not objective in my view. Are you?

Bemybebe "Is kissing and holding hands appropriate in public?
-As in all Muslim countries public displays of affection are considered disrespectful and may lead to a police caution or even arrest.""

Except again for men, of course. In Morocco there were many men who were touchy feely. I have read this is more the culture over there between men. Whatever. My gaydar went off all the time. I know homosexuality isn't tolerated, but holding hands and touching between is tolerated between men, as long as it isn't too overt.

LDN mummy - I apologise, I was wrong. But I had the opposite experience. I used to not wear a bra, but found it uncomfortable at times. As soon as I started wearing a bra, I actually found it much more comfortable. Admittedly it is only the old fashioned looking bras that I find this with.

Nijinski I suspect this is in part that we have no say or right to dictate the laws and customs of other sovereign states, while France is part of the EU, it has many cultural similarities (as well as differences) with us, and calls itself free and democratic, therefore we have more say over its laws.

cantspel yes but I see hair covering as the thin end of the wedge, due to the thinking behind it.

I think they have done it in response to the $87 million spent by the Wahhabis in order to spread the fundamentalism they wish to impose on the world in the way that any fashion or trend can be popularised by a promoter. I don't think it's possible to cover every single personal reason a woman might choose to wear one, any more than it would be possible to isolate the reasons why many individual women decided to forgo bras in the 70s or wear bell bottoms or other trademarks of the decade.

Reasons put forth for wearing the burqa that I am aware of include feeling safer/feeling less exposed (which may happen as a result of feeling threatened as women outside the home; this can be put down to resignation in the face of bad male behaviour, maybe social conditioning engendering a belief that women are responsible for the behaviour of others towards them), feeling they are on the way to becoming better Muslims (this bespeaks the Wahhabi influence because they hold the view that following their rules = being a proper Muslim, plus social conditioning), feeling that the 'west' is at war with Islam and that wearing the burqa is an expression of resistance and a claim for the rights of Muslims (Islamist influence here; what is actually going on is a bad case of jihad against the 'infidel' west and concurrent infidelophobia.)

There are probably women who are coerced into it despite British or other western education (male entitlement and insecurity/ psychological problems involving projection). And there is also the element of going along with a trend in an individual mosque community or neighbourhood/enclave. The influence of individual imams can be strong. The daughter of an elderly neighbour of mine converted to Islam and married a very zealous Muslim man who influenced her adoption of the burqa, full head (but not face) covering for their DDs from childhood -- this example illustrates the influence of an individual in one woman's life, the zeal of a convert, the social conditioning of a young woman who was brought up in a strict Christian home, and the influence of a certain mosque.

"Is the root of the problem, therefore, that Muslim men are particularly voracious?"

Or are Muslim women particularly timid?

LDNMummy "Men live together as 'housemates' and whatever they do behind closed door's is left to them."

but you can bet that lesbian women aren't afforded the same laissez-faire privileges...

LDN homosexuality is a crime in the UAE. They might be prepared to look the other way with what you do as visitor to their country in the privacy of your own hotel room but why should a gay person have to hide away their sexuality?

nijinsky - yes that could be true that Muslim women are particularly timid - or shy?

Animation

That's rude, deliberately provocative and quite obtuse.

Muslim men and women are supposed to dress modestly. This means no shorts, short sleeves, tight clothes for either gender. Muslim men and women are supposed to keep their thoughts clean and avoid thinking about sex with anyone they are not married to. They are supposed to avoid thinking about sex full stop at certain times of reflection, such as during prayers or during fasting.

What is considered modest for men and women is slightly different, men should traditionally cover their heads but not hair, and wear loose tunics to their knees, not their ankles. Women have traditionally been expected to cover their hair too. However, the exhortion is to both genders to 'lower their gaze' and avoid sexual thoughts. Lowering your gaze is about keeping your own mind pure, not protecting someone else's virtue.

If I were to walk in front of a muslim man dressed in hotpants and a bra it would be his responsibility to avoid looking at me. Not that he would be unable to control his sexual urges and rape me.

There is a HUGE misconception over the purpose of lowering your gaze and dressing modestly.

But there has been cases of gay men being forced to under go hormone treatment and 2 gay women sentanced to 1 month imprisonment for kissing on a beach.

LDNmummy "general cultural tolerance outweighs these laws greatly."

yeah, but so-called 'cultural tolerance' alone (and ignore the oppressive and unfair law) is not a healthy basis for the harmonious society. in the UK laws protect human rights and one can go to the courts and WIN using appropriate legislation.

Missymarmite, I think the girls who wore their headscarves ostentatiously outside of school were under the mistaken impression that the west is against Islam, whereas the west is quite rightly against Islamists. They are mistaken in their belief that the west does not welcome their religion or accept their right to practice it, but they are right to identify the head covering as a symbol of resistance to the claims of western civil society. (They are also mistaken, according to many scholars, in their belief that Islam demands the veil.)

All in all, they seem to have fallen under the Wahhabi influence some way or another. The brouhaha about the religious symbols in schools in France demonstrated very clearly the use fundamentalists want to make of the western right to face and head covering as a 'religious' expression.

Reading this thread with interest and disbelief. I thought I would just post with a link that some might find interesting. Sorry it does bring nuns back in to the converstation www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/veil.htm

Maybe the misconception about male and female Muslim modesty exists because there appear to be no repercussions for Muslim men who defy the exhortation to modest dress, whereas women seem to be much more fearful of stepping over the line?

"Why is there so much outcry about France banning face covering in public and so little about denying women education in some strictly Muslim countries, and applying Sharia law so strictly that rape is blamed on women, adultery is an offence punishable by death, etc.. Why campaign for the right to wear a burqa and not basic human rights such as these?"

Good question! Would any burka supporters care to answer?