To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

Or running for a bus. Or running down stairs.or running across the road. Don't care what the look like, but daily life is frankly painful without a bra. Do you just sit in a chair all day?

Again, mumoverseas, it may not seriously enforced but it does not mean it is NOT TRUE. See the link to the UAE embassy. I used to work for a very serious American company and my travel office warned me about it. They said there were reports of door-to-door searches in some hotels.

computermouse "My brother is now married bemby so 'whatever'"
Don't be cross. I wish your brother well. . Your earlier posts made me think you think you live in an oppressive country and it is liberal paradise "out there", which is not true.

"The only time a bra is actually necessary is during very active physical sport."

I can only assume that unlike me, you don't have large breasts. If you do have large breasts, then decent bras are much more comfortable than not wearing one. It also helps to prevent problems such as heat rash under the breasts. I know this is not the same for women with small breasts.

mumoverseas

My companies travel desk are experts since we have a long-standing active Dubai office. They book regular short trips, we as a company used to host and sponsor a famous event in Dubai, there are plenty of our expats on long-term packages. I never covered Middle East because my specialism was North and East European markets, but my dh used to trade oil with Middle East for 20 years. My company is very active there and they employ good specialists.

The fact is it is formally illegal or the Embassy in London is also not an authority for you? You can shrug your shoulders as long as you want.

"My companies" My company's (fgs)

I didn;t birng Catholic Nuns into itb did I?

I am glad you know about swastika: I get the impression you know a fair bit abut religion; me too, a degree in fact. Many don't know about it however- just as I am not up to date on issues in other fields from my own.

Thinking that in terms of debate / furure nearest equivalent to Burkha migt be the kirpan?

Isn't the Kirpan a Sikh ceremonial sword?

And it was another poster who basically said what is the problems with burkhas when we have nuns who wear a full habit. So the comments have all been in reply to that post.

"And it was another poster who basically said what is the problems with burkhas when we have nuns who wear a full habit..."

Which in itself is wrong because habits do not obscure faces.

I don't like the burkha because I like to be able to see the face of the person I am talking to. I would feel the same about someone wearing shades, or a cap/hoodie obscuring their face. I think it is and should be socially unacceptable.

However, I don't think it is something that we should be making a law against in a supposedly free society. That's where I think France has got it wrong. They are imposing their own militant, fundamentalist "laïcité" on french muslims.

The French argument is not 'ban the burqa, emancipate women'. The French argument is that the quicker immigrants and religious zealots become adapted to French culture the happier they will be and the happier France will be, and the fewer Islamist terrorists France will produce.

This Channel 4 poll from a few years ago illustrates the need for the UK to start thinking of some separation of the sheep from the goats too. This survey revealed that over one third of British Muslim students felt that killing in the name of religion was justified. Another (from 2006ish) showed that 41% of British Muslims thought what Britain needed was Sharia law. Sharia law would be the end of British freedom.

France has correctly identified the threat to French liberty, equality and fraternity, not to mention the future of French law that veiling of women represents, and has acted accordingly. The full veil is the thin end of the wedge of Sharia. Wole Soyinka, Nigerian winner of the Nobel Prize in literature has said of tolerance of radical Islamist ideas in the west (specifically the UK) '?Its social logic is to allow all religions to preach openly. But this is illogic, because none of the other religions preach apocalyptic violence. And yet England allows it.?

France has also correctly identified secularism as a unifying force of French society; this has been obvious in France since the end of WW1, and certainly accepted from the collapse of the Third Republic. France remains convinced that the west has much to offer to the middle east and I think that belief has been borne out by the recent and ongoing pro-democratic unrest in various states there. Fundamentalist Islam is not a friend of democracy any more than the Mubarak or Ghaddafi regimes were (are).

It is a big mistake imo to treat people who are citizens or residents of a particular state as members of groups or tribes and not as individuals capable of individual perception and of acceptance of the reality that they are now living according to laws and mores that may be unfamiliar but which are nevertheless law, and customary in that state. Nothing contributes to alienation more than the idea that a person is considered neither fish nor fowl in the country where they live.

It is offensive and patronising to look on the deeply held beliefs and habits of fundamentalists as some sort of quirk or quaintness that they should be entitled to continue practicing because we don't expect any more of them, and just plain misguided to extend western freedom to zealots whose ultimate wish is to bite off the hand that feeds them. Fundamentalist Islam is just as much concerned with governance and just as little concerned with faith as fundamentalist Christianity is.

Oh good grief! I am Middle Eastern (though mixed heritage) and can honestly tell you that this is just the most rediculous thread with people putting ill informed opinions forward on something they think they know about because they watch the evening news. Almost no one on here knows anything solid about Middle Eastern culture so do me a favour.

My family is from Lebanon, just type Lebanese women or women in Lebanon into google and look at the images. Not every midle eastern country is a Burkha paradise. Middle Eastern countries are all different. Dubai is way more tolerant than people on here are describing it and expats/ tourists are understood to be expats/ tourists and do not need to be married to hire a hotel room. Single women move out there all the time to pursue careers for instance and live quite well. Yes there are extremist countries but Middle Eastern/ Islamic countries are all different and women are treated differently in each one.

I am well aware of that LDNmummy and it is obvious some other posters are. Although not all are.

why is everyone bring nuns into it?

A nun doesn't cover her face. She may wear a Wimple which covers her head, hair and neck but her whole face is exposed.
Very similar to a muslim woman wearing a hijab which also covers the head, hair and neck but leaves the face exposed.
As far as i am aware no one on this thread has called for a ban on hijab just the burka and other forms of full face covering.

The comments were in response to 1 poster who said the wearing of a burkha is the same as nuns wearing a habit. Nobody else has agreed with this poster.

LDNMummy good post, sadly some of the posters on here just don't want to listen, they are too fixed in their views

A lot of islamic countries will let unmarried couples who are not nationals of that country share hotel rooms but wont allow their own citizens to do so.
Egypt is a case in point. Fine for us do so but 2 egyptians or an egyptian and a non egyptian will not be able to.

Huzzah for tolerance (for westerners only apparently) in those two very small and insignificant places. Wimminswatch.org article on child brides in Canada begs to differ on the subject of Lebanon.

"I can only assume that unlike me, you don't have large breasts. If you do have large breasts, then decent bras are much more comfortable than not wearing one. It also helps to prevent problems such as heat rash under the breasts. I know this is not the same for women with small breasts."

I am a 34G , never thought I would be putting that out on MN. All the women in my family are large in that department, I am on the smaller side. I am the only one who does not wear a bra and I have the most robust breasts out of everyone. Actually my size is half the reason I stopped wearing bra's, got sick of spending so much money on one as the bigger you are the more expensive they are. Then I did some research to see if it would make them sag If I stopped wearing bra's and found out it was actually the opposite. After a month or so of not wearing a bra, the discomfort completely wears off. Now a bra is very uncomfortable for me and I only wear a sports one when I have to. Talcum powder will help with any heat rash issues. My breasts have gotten larger since getting pregnant so have had a little heat rash, I use a little talc there after a shower and its all good!

I still have not bought one maternity bra but will do when I get closer to the end of my pregnancy.

math - why do you think some British educated Muslim women have turned to the burkha?

LDNMummy I guess this is the post address to me amongst others.
Nobody said that all muslim countries are all the same and all women are burka-clad, so do not twist the words. Lebanon is well known for its relative tolerance, including religious minorities. Dubai came into the discussion as an example of place someone wishes to visit and I simply warned about what I was warned myself by the experts. Again, I think you are missing the point I made about it - the law in Dubai states that sharing a hotel room is illegal and there may be consequences. Are you also prepared to say to me that what the embassy says is not true?
Nobody said that single women cannot pursue a career in Dubai, in fact there was/is a thriving international financial center their. However, you would not be allowed to pursue your chosen career in Saudi (remember my remark, so skillfully avoided mumoverseas?) due to religious restrictions.

I dare to defend France as a place where women have a lot more rights and freedoms with their controversial law on burka than in any muslim country that practices Sharia law. I am happy to say I am wrong if you can prove me as such.

mathanxiety ; you make a good point. Our form of multiculturalism - that is, each ethnic group keeps its own idently to such a point that they do not become part of British culture - isn't working well because it can lead to ghettoisation. So in that I would agree with the French ideology. However, Françoise Gaspard made a very good point in an interview about the 1989 veil incident; I am paraphrasing here, she was talking to a school principal about the law that banned any religious symbol, including the headscarf within state schools, and they both said that since the ban, they had noted an increase in the numbers of girls who ostentatiously put on a head scarf on walking out of school. These are girls who before hand never bothered with it. But the ban made them feel that they had to chose between being French, and being muslim. They wanted to show they could be both.

cantspel "As far as i am aware no one on this thread has called for a ban on hijab just the burka and other forms of full face covering."

I haven't called for a ban on anything and neither has France, other than on the face being covered in public. However my opinions on the hijab insofar that it covers the face are similar - I find it offensive that women are thought better covered up and feel that they cannot choose, if they wish to, to wear less clothing. I feel the same about the requirment to wear a scarf covering the hair. I do not think, as long as my sexual reproductive organs and those associated thereto are covered, that I am doing anything to offend public decency. My hair is not an offensive sight, and if men cannot control themselves at the sight of it, then it is they who should exert more control over themselves, not I.

Anything else is an affront to my personal freedom and I find it offensive.