To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

of course you can make your own choices, just dont be surprised or pissed off if you end up getting attacked or put in prison for doing it.

if you were in south africa would you go in places that are not safe just because you think you should have the right too? there has to be some common sense when you go into other countries with cultures so very different.

one of my best friends went to south africa and was robbed at gun point and knife point twive in 5 days, she made the mistake of thinking it would be safe to go to the police but a girl she had made friends with told her that if she was asked to go in to the back room to make a statement she would be raped, now thats now right but in places like that you have yo be sensible. if you feel so strongly why dont you campaign for the rights of women in saudi? why dont you set up online learning via email for them? all this would be better than going over there setting yourself up for serious trouble.

the customs and traditions of the UK are freedom

whats the differnce between lowering your gaze ie looking away if you were jeered at men or women? i only mentioned british women because i happen to live in britain and so have seen late at night how women react when they are being jeered at and out alone, i would guess they do it to avoid confrontation etc

SanctiMoanyArse Swastika - hindu symbolism link is very well know and is used in courts to defend the right to display Nazi symbols in public places in the countries where such practice is outlawed. No need to post any links.

French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans all religious articles including crosses and jewish kips. Headscarfs made headlines because of the ability of the Muslim community to create noise.

There is no Burka/Niqab equivalent in other religions as far as the coverage of face is concerned. Bringning catholic nuns into equation is misleading because catholics are not required to become nuns; those who choose it are not just women (there are plenty of male orders).

Nuns are members of a religious who have chosen to withdraw from public life in order to join that order. There is no requirement for the covering up of "civilian" women going about their daily lives, which is what we are actually talking about. Its not the same thing, male priests and vicars also wear clerical garb.

Also, nun/priest wear, is not so much about hiding the body, as about "plainess". Nuns and priests are supposed to strive for humilty and the outfits and head covering (all though not all orders have them and they are not mandatory), are supposed to do away with physical vanity and so help in their striving for humility.

It is also to mark them apart (which kind of rubbishes the thing about burkas being inclusive), because they have withdrawn from what we would call normal life, and chosen to live apart, in order to devote their life to prayer and contemplation.

It might all be bollocks, but nuns habit is not all the same thing as the burka.

I am an agnostic.

But knittedbreast you suggested that in Britain I lower my gaze like the Koran preaches, if I get jeered at by men! That is really offensive to me.

I've actually spent nearly at month in South Africa, training in Potchefstroom, a strong Afrikaans area. I and the other female runners had no problems training quite long distances on our own in crop tops and shorts and I went out for an evening meal alone with no problems whatsoever. I also hired a bike and cycled all around, but would I have hired a car and driven myself around the country? No. The problem is with crime in general, and often then with percieved crime. True, typical Boer men can be rather old fashioned but they also have a great tradition of strong women, and this is unsurprising since many of them have Dutch ancestry, and Dutch women were one of the earliest emancipated races from the home to work outside it. Now the rights of blacks and coloured people in South Africa is what you really have to be concerned with, and the widespread poverty.

Warm weather training in Saudi Arabia? Not so easy. I know a Saudi company sponsored a British mens triathlon training camp a few years back and pressure was successfully brought on them to refuse it the next year because it was only for men.

knittedbreast "i find it surprising how many people in the west will happily argue you that women shouldnt be repressed by having to cover up, but there is more opression in western culture."

Do you actually understand what you write? Do you seriously suggest that a woman here has less rights than a woman in Saudi?

bemybebe I'm ostensibly Christian. But with all the problems that religion seems to cause, I can see the appeal in paganism (and the logic in it!)

Thank you for the offer of the file in cake mumoverseas! You can bet all that would happen would be a quick deportation though, if they couldn't trump up some evidence to make it seem more than it was.

But since jeering and unwelcome comments are universally recognised as an issue by us all, maybe the BBC should make a documentary on it. Secret filming of a woman in different locations or something. And then challenging the jeerers afterwards on why they did it. Would be quite interesting.

I have to say, in Scotland, I very rarely get jeered and I often wear the oft mentioned running shorts and vest or crop top when its hot or run safely in the dark later at night. Even through some of the roughest parts of some cities I've been perfectly safe and left alone, thinking here Whitfield in Dundee and Niddrie in Edinburgh. I think probably 25 years ago it might have been worse but its really rare now as so many women run and do other sports. Doesn't really happen on holiday to Europe, tends to be more shouts of encouragement, which men get too.

What computermouse does not tell you here is that hotel rooms will not be sold to unmarried couples in Dubai. It is illegal and you may get into serious trouble for that.

Then do not say "as long as" if you do not know.
My company warned me to book a separate room when I wanted to join my then bf (working for the same company) in Dubai during his business trip. There were no door-to-door searches in this 5-star swanky hotel, but there were in other and I was told to err on teh side of caution. I never went to Dubai as a result.

From UAE embassy in London website FAQ:

" Is it legal to share a hotel room in the UAE with my partner if I am unmarried?

• No.

Is kissing and holding hands appropriate in public?
-As in all Muslim countries public displays of affection are considered disrespectful and may lead to a police caution or even arrest."

I agree with Ericnorthman - there are some odd double standards coming through in some of these arguments.

If there is less personal freedom in, for example, Saudi Arabia, then we can probably agree that is a Bad Thing.

If there is more personal freedom in the UK, then we can probably agree that is a Good Thing.

Where, therefore, is the logic in saying "I'm not allowed to assert my personal choices in their country so they shouldn't be allowed to assert those freedoms in my country"?

If you believe that the Burkha is a sign of the oppression of women and tha it has no place in our society because we value freedom, then it seems a bit bizarre to suggest that it should be banned. Surely the appropriate course of action would be to work on the oppression, not oppress the thing that might or might not be the symbol of that oppression?

Whatever computermouse. I do not think they really pay attention to expat community, so your 'bruv' should not fear, but I would be careful. Dubai jails are not fun.

Maybe you should re-evaluate some of your assumptions.

kungfupannda I agree with you but your conclusions are wrong in my opinion.

There are no right and wrong answers in respect to burka because there are plenty of valid arguments for and against.

However, unlike in other societies the French were debating and voting on the issue that now is the law.

kungfupannda sorry, I'll re-phrase. I agree with your opening arguments but your conclusions are wrong in my opinion.

Breasts should have a little natural sag, but it is a myth that bra's do anything except give a false impression of womens breasts. This is pandering to a male desire for younger looking pert breasts as opposed to actually benefitting the women who wear them. I used to have a better source than this that listed the study involved in proving this but here is another link: www.antibra.com/bra_sagging.php

The only time a bra is actually necessary is during very active physical sport.

What computermouse does not tell you here is that hotel rooms will not be sold to unmarried couples in Dubai. It is illegal and you may get into serious trouble for that. - actually, that is not true. I've been to Dubai many times as have many of my un-married friends who are in relationships and they have never had any problems booking rooms in hotels when not married. Perhaps it depends which hotels, but I've never known it to be a problem.