To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

knittedbreast but why is it "mad" that a Western woman would feel just as strongly about her human rights to choose as a Muslim woman living in the West? If I wanted to be a political martyr and suffer the consequences, I would be doing no more than the Suffragettes did here nearly a hundred years ago. But by challenging such attitudes, society moved on.

I wasn't talking about walking around in a bikini at night, I was talking about running in a public place during the day in shorts and running vest. I didn't actually know about the convention of covering your shoulders in a Catholic church.

It would be an interesting concept, would it not, if I had the gall? To try to run in various countries around the world to gauge the reaction and how it was tolerated. I think I would have got away with it in Tangiers actually because its pretty international and running is very popular. Not perhaps as radical as it sounds. If you read travel literature, you will discover that lone female cyclists such as Devla Murphy cycled across the Middle East 50 years ago. I don't think that would be possible any longer, even for men, which I think it worrying.

nijinsky - But surely if you visit anther country you read up on what is acceptable there and try to not offend the local population whether that be covering up more or whatever. Don't understand why you feel you want to act the way you want no matter where you are - it would be nice but that's not the way it works and obviously you don't have to agree or like it. I don't like the Burkha but it's not illegal in the UK and the norm here is for people to be able to dress how they please within reason.

Only a very few nuns completely cover their faces and/or take vows of silence. Most people see these nuns as a bit extreme.

Most nuns imply wear variations on long skirts and long sleeved tops.

lesley, that's not actually true you know. The reason you don't often see nuns who wear full habits is that they are usually from enclosed orders - ie., not only are in a habit, they're also confined within their building except in unusual circumstances. One could say that's a more extreme form of hiding women's bodies, although to be fair, monks do it too.

I know that is why you don't see them. Sorry i meant that the amount of nuns in enclosed orders, when compared to the number of nuns overall, is very small in the UK.

When I was in Morrocco many of the women from our tour grouip wore clothing that one would not necessarily think appropriate for casablance- cropped tops etc (not me). Nothing nad happened, although ahd they tried to enter te Mosque compound they'd have been refused- a shame as it was so incredibly stunning a place.

What I don;t het about all this is how women are helped by a alrgely patriarchal government inflicting a ban on something that migt liberate some women from a choice they did not make but simultaneously forces a choice on others who were quaite able to make thier own minds up before?

Isn't it just shifting the burden of oppression, rather than alleviating it?

Oh and the swastika comment above? When at uni we had some speakers in from Hindu groups about reclaiming the swastika, which is and was an ancient Hindu emblem. I did link on here to some articles years ago but have since lost them. Swastikas in conjunction with Nazi sympathisers or the politics of hate / right wing extremism- offensive. Not always though, at least if people understand the true origins and meanings (which i do get they often do not).

And I don't think the idea of French secularism really works unless ALL religious clothing is banned: karas, crosses, bindi....... I woudln't persoanlly vote for that but it would seem fairer.

Should point out I am a Christian Quaker not a Muslim, before I get accused of anything like anti Christian bias (well it is MN...)

Sorry lesley, didn't mean that to come across rudely. I'm just quite aware of it as I used to discuss this with my cousin who was an enclosed nun, and I know she thought burquas sounded quite nice and practical - I do find it really interesting that nuns generally don't get the same flak for covering up.

But fastedwina the Burka does offend me, by suggesting that women should be treated differently from women and not allowed out without covering up so drastically. it offends my dignity as a woman every time I see it. It also upsets me. But I politeness and respect for others' feelings stops me from commenting. If I were a man, it might offend me by suggesting that I am so little in control of my urges, I would be unable to resist a woman if I saw her flesh. It also offends me becase it is our custom in the west to remove restrictive headgear before speaking to someone - if a hoodie approached me with their hood up I would feel more uncomfortable about talking to them than if they had their hood down.

I think we are very tolerant in the west and that some radical and politically motivated people are playing on that.

That said, I don't see why I shouldn't make a political statement abroad, if I am prepared to suffer the consequences. I'm not suggesting I go around with my private parts uncovered -thats not my culture. If women want to travel to France to assert their right to wear the burka, what is the difference in me travelling to Saudi Arabia to run in a vest and shorts?

Can anyone tell me if I would be safe to run in shorts and a vest in the UK in certain areas where wearing the burka is more common?

you are not mad to want to prove your point, but you should do it in a way that dousnt threaten your safety or freedom.

i find it surprising how many people in the west will happily argue you that women shouldnt be repressed by having to cover up, but there is more opression in western culture. what about being forced to feel like you have to look a certain way to be accpeted? all by a male owned media. yes women here can walk down the road in next to nothing but, if you watch a young girl walking down the road at night dressed in short skirt and low cut top and a group of men walk past and start yelling at her what does she do? she looks down, lowers her gaze.

thats what islam teaches

you would be unsafe to run in shorts in many areas of britain! but you are not more likely to be unsafe where there are a high number of muslim women wearing the burka over here. the reason is most women here wear it through choice. in saudi its pretty much a requirement, those women dont always get to choose and anyway the unsafe bit dousnt come from those women but from the men who are not used to seeing women run about in shorts, whether the safety aspect would be sexual or just that you might get called names or arrrested would depend where you were

goodbyemrschips my previous message was for you and others bothered about muslims clothes

do you have a spell checker? [to firstsupermum]

or is english not your first language?

what if I went to Saudi Arabia with the attitude that I would wear clothes that were acceptable in my home country and that people should respect my culture and my right to choose? Would they respect that or would I land myself in trouble? What if I deliberately didn't cover up to make a political statement that I was a western woman who wanted others to respect her right to wear what she chose?
I'm certain you would indeed land yourself in trouble. Probably in the minimum a night in the local jail before being deported.

Why should I do or not do anything knittedbreast? I am a sentient human being, able to make my own choices. If I wanted to be a political martyr overseas for womens' rights, that is my choice.

I just feel so sorry for those oppressed women in countries such as Afrghanistan for whom going to school is a an act of virtual political martydom.

And you do have some strange ideas about women lowering their gazes when jeered at in the street. I tell them to eff off. When I was a schoolgirl, we used to kick any man in the train who we thought was eyeing us or down, or start laughing at him til he got so embarrassed he had to move away.

Exactly!

When in a country you abide by their rules.

We break rules abroad we get punished.

Others break rules here we pussy foot around them.

Why do women in Britain have the vote now? 120 years ago this was considered such a radical thing it was almost unthinkable. Its called progress.

i dont need spell checker, you talking with english not british that you are proud off
if you use to tape a message you know that you can make some mistakes, check your previous ones, get over it, get out off the country.
you talking bullshit.

agree with MrsChips last post

you should abide by the customs/laws/traditions of the country you are in

A lot of people agree with me though.

''you talking with english not british''....is that code for something?

there is no rule in the Uk against wearing the burkha though - no law is being broken.

TRUE BUT THERE IS IN fRANCE AND SOME PEOPLE ARE UP IN ARMS ABOUT IT.

[Sorry for caps]

Have you been drinking?

'Exactly!

When in a country you abide by their rules.

We break rules abroad we get punished.

Others break rules here we pussy foot around them.'

Our rules here are that we have the freedom to express ourselves however we wish if we don't hurt others. You hold up this 'double standard' of extreme muslim countries not allowing women to dress as they wish as if we should apply that here too! Insanity. We do not criminalise women for their clothing choices. That's a good thing.

knittedbreast I have lost track of who is speaking for Muslims or not on here and am unsure if you are. But I find it really offensive that you think British women should "lower their gaze" if jeered at by men in the street. I can speak for myself, I have a tongue in my head and I actually think if you do so, you are far less likely to be attacked. You may be confusing pack behaviour with jeering. If I was jeered at by a pack of aggressive girls I would react much the same as with a pack of men - I would avoid eye contact and attemmpt to get out of there, drawing as little attention to myself as possible. But a man jeering at me - lower my gaze - sorry but you are living in your own little world there.