To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

TBH I think both the Bible and the Koran can be, and are used to justify a range of conflicting views and lifestyles. nijinsky - Some evangelical groups do believe every word of the bible and say that we should follow all of its "rules".

I am a little on the fence with this one. I think the problem is that the burkha has become such a big issue that it has been dragged out of context by those who believe that it is a symbol of the oppression of women and those who believe that it can be a tool for the liberation of women.

I don't think I will be able to look at a burkha in an entirely neutral way until such time as we, as a world society, have addressed and eradicated the problems round the treatment of women in some countries and religious/ethnic groups. That is not the fault of the burkha or of those who choose to wear it but it is a fact. Without this backdrop, the burkha would be a matter of personal choice.

When you look at a woman in a burkha you cannot possibly know whether she is wearing it because of the expectations, or even oppression of those around her, or whether she is wearing it because she is "opting out" of some of the expectations and customs surrounding the pre-occupation with women's appearance. Deal with the bigger issues and this uncertainty goes away - it becomes a true matter of choice.

mumoverseas "I believe a lot of it is down to personal choice."

The 'personal choice' which colour head scarf to wear or weather to wear one at all. If the former, not much of a 'choice', eh?

I struggle with the notion that the full Burka is liberating. I associate it with oppression of women, denial of education to women or of going out the house without being in some danger unless covered completely, etc.. I can see that some women might use it to make a political statement but otherwise cannot see the need to wear such an impractical and potentially offensive garment in western countries if living here permanently.

Maybe it would be useful for some people with extreme body dismorphysm, who want to hide their entire bodies from the public eye, but even then it would seem designed only to attract greater attention to the wearer.

"There is no social need for women to be covered from head to toe in the UK. So why do they do it? Pressure from families and husbands of course."

You are quite simply wrong about that, Nijinsky. Some girls and women are put under family pressure, some highly educated, independent women make their own choice irrespective of their husband's view. Thy do it because of their own personal way they prefer to observe religion, or because it is an important expression of thier identity of for other reasons I can't speculate on, because i don't know.

You are making all sorts of assumptions on this thread about complex situations that you are still learning about.

I am also a little taken aback at the suggestion that something as complex as "Britishness" or any national identity can be negated by mode of dress.

We are a country that has traditionally welcomed people from all sorts of cultures and societies and we have taken on some aspects of those cultures and given some aspects of our own.

If we cannot look past the fact that someone may feel differently about dress and modesty than we do, then that is very worrying.

A colleague of mine is a Muslim woman. She does not wear the Burkha but she does, on certain occasions, wear the niqab. Does she become less British on those days? Is a headscarf capable of undermining the fact that her family have been in the country for many decades? Or that she employs people in this country and pays taxes to this country? Or that she is an award-winning lawyer working in the legal aid system of this country? Or that her children speak no language but English? She is not oppressed - she is the main breadwinner in her family, owning property in her own name, making decisions for herself and her family. The niqab is something she chooses to wear under certain circumstances because it is an important part of her culture. She is still British.

applauds kungfu too

I personally do not like the niqab. I think it's an extreme level of something I don't really agree with in the first place - the necessity of modest dress and pure thoughts are a religious idea that I'm not on board with, however I respect any woman's right to adhere to that as much or as little as she wishes. I respect a woman's right to walk along in a bikini top and hotpants (common in Brighton on a sunny day) although I'd rather not have an eyeful of 95% of her naked body! I also respect a woman's right to conceal every part of her exposed skin, although I think she's making her life uncomfortable and more difficult for a flawed principle.

What makes me proud to be british is that we all have the right to express our views in any way that doesn't hurt others, without fear of reprisals from the government or official bodies. It is extremely unbritish to talk about eroding that.

bemybebe
The 'personal choice' which colour head scarf to wear or weather to wear one at all. If the former, not much of a 'choice', eh? - Actually, all the headscarfs tend to be black, to match the abayas. A choice of what coloured diamante or patterns to have on it perhaps. I reiterate, the muslim women that I know and have discussed this with, maintain that it is their choice, not their husband's or their family's choice. Not all wear the headscarf but all carry them with them in case the religious police are out and about.
I am saddened that people have such a negative view of life as a woman in Saudi and other muslim countries. It simply isn't the case that all women MUST wear the burka/niquab.

But are Muslims to be treated in such a way that other races cannot make known to them our thoughts about such items of clothing as the full coverage Burka? Plenty of people want to preserve their traditions when they move to other countries. But the full burka is very extreme. It makes me uncomfortable, as a woman, and it makes other people uncomfortable too, or this thread would not exist.

I don't go about wearing wooden clogs and a Dutch cap. My DP manages to remain Scottish without insisting on wearing a kilt at all times and carrying a knife tucked into his socks.

Not all wear the headscarf but all carry them with them in case the religious police are out and about.
I am saddened that people have such a negative view of life as a woman in Saudi and other muslim countries. It simply isn't the case that all women MUST wear the burka/niquab.

So if I went to Dubai on holiday (not that I'm going to, it doesn't appeal), I would have to wear a fucking headscarf? Really? Thats utterly ridiculous. What would happen to me if I didn't?

Theres no way I'd be wearing a headscarf for anyone. I'm not 82 and feeding my pigeons or something.

I know some women who wear the burka they are definatly not opressed, they have described wearing it as feeling free to really live, unhindered by the stares of men and the pressures of what you look like and how you dress.
yes many muslim friends do go out with their husbands but they dont feel like this holds them back, if anything they feel special, as though they are so precious to thei husbands they require an attendent.

how many of you have been out with your partner and hes bought you somthing? he was probebly talking on her behalf because she wasnt about to get undressed for the make up lady to match her skin tone.

have any of you ever worn the hijab? if you ever want to feel truly beautiful, i couldnt reccommend it enough

No, you would be fine in Dubai, just not in Saudi so its quite lucky it is not a holiday destination

nijinsky, if you go to a muslim country you should abide b their rules, if you dont agree with them dont go. you will find yourself feeling quite uncomfortble if you go to saudi with the mindset of "i shouldnt have to so i wont".

knittedbreast I read what you say but it doesn't convince me. I am not subject to the same influences, controls, whatever you call them. I do what I want.

I have been abroad in countries where I don't speak the language. When I wanted something I simply went into a shop, pointed and used sign language (and indeed body language and a lot of laughs over misunderstandings) and got what I needed.

Relieved to hear about the headscarf situation in Dubai. I had visions of women coming off planes and having to don one!

What about if I went on holiday to Dubai and I went out running, perhaps along the beach front area, (which in most holiday destinations is pretty safe). Would that be ok and would I be ok in shorts and a running vest?

What about if I had a wee holiday romance with someone I met on holiday? Would that be frowned upon?

'I am puzzled. If seeing unveiled women creates such a challenge to maintaining muslim men's purity, why aren't they the ones to stay indoors, limit their social interactions and wear blinkers when outdoors? Not an original question, I know.'

I would like to hear a Muslim woman answer AyeRobot's question.

And more troubling, why, if the purpose of headcoverings is to protect the man from impurity, do female children wear them?
I have seen a definite increase in the number of KS1 girls wearing headscarves and leggings for swimming lessons.
I asked a 6yo who came back to school after the February break with her head covered why she had chosen to do so.
She told me her Mother told her it was necessary, the 'bad prophet' will wee on the heads of uncovered women

knittedbreast what if I went to Saudi Arabia with the attitude that I would wear clothes that were acceptable in my home country and that people should respect my culture and my right to choose? Would they respect that or would I land myself in trouble? What if I deliberately didn't cover up to make a political statement that I was a western woman who wanted others to respect her right to wear what she chose?

I think we should follow France's example. It is basic respect for the country's values that you are in. I feel that the burka implies that women that don't wear one are somewhat less modest than those that do.

mumoverseas"I am saddened that people have such a negative view of life as a woman in Saudi and other muslim countries."

I am saddened that you do not recognize that strict woman-only dress code, practice of arranged marriages, ban on driving, ban on voting and being voted into the office, having to have a MALE guardian, forcing primary responsibility as a homemaker on a woman and denying her equal opportunities in the work place is nothing short of gender apartheid, even if majority of women agree to it.

One cannot CHOOSE if one does not have a CHOICE.

The issue in France is somewhat different, because the "choice" to wear burkha is taken away. I would normally disagree with this approach, but under the circumstances I agree with the French as they are protecting their secular principles from a very aggressive, I would even say militant section of the society that normally denies human right to their woman.

To me this dilemma is similar to the ability to wear swastika in public places. Some countries ban it, some don't. I normally would say don't ban it, but I will NOT be marching the street to protect freedom of expression to those who would normally take it away from others.

Although most hijabs are black, not all are. I once saw a woman wearing a brown one with the clavin klein logo all over it.

nijinsky it would depend where you were, you would be mad to put yourself in a dangerous situation just to try and prove your political statement in a country you dont even live in. i understand what you are trying to say but you wouldnt intentionally put yourself in other dangerous situations so why be so defiant there?

if you walked down the back steets of saudi in a bikini at night you would probebly be arrested attacked or receive abuse, it wouldnt be safe. but would you do that in other parts of the world? if you went on holiday to a catholic country and went to look in a church you would cover your shoulders wouldnt you out of respect for where you were?

people get so het up about muslim women covering up-what about the nuns who live on thier own in silence with their hair covered? the bible is extremly patriachal.

Interesting debate. I hate the sight of a woman wearing a burka, it makes me uncomfortable. However, I don't agree with the French, and I don't think it is right to ban it. I think when you do that, you make people over react the other way, IYSWIM.