To be Disturbed by this woman in a Burka? ......

[Gingefringe]

I saw a very strange event in Debenhams make-up counter this week-end which on reflection, I found very disturbing.
A woman in a full burka (including her eyes covered in thin veil) came up to the make-up counter with a man (presumably DH). The man then proceeded to ask about foundation for the woman and had a conversation with the sales assistant which rarely included the woman at all (apart from trying on a sample colour on her hand).
I felt so sorry for the poor woman - not only to be forced to wear this ridiculous veil but she wasn't allowed even to chose her own make-up!
I did give the man my best evil looks but he didn't seem to notice - perhaps because I was a woman!! I was too cowardly to say anything.

On the day that France bans the burka I wonder whether you would have said anything?

If there were not sexual harrassment in the UK, then [[http://ldn.ihollaback.org/ sites like hollaback would not be needed.

I am puzzled. If seeing unveiled women creates such a challenge to maintaining muslim men's purity, why aren't they the ones to stay indoors, limit their social interactions and wear blinkers when outdoors? Not an original question, I know.

And the men are visual/women are not is long debunked pseudoscience. Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine is a good place to start if anyone wants to read more.

Sexual harassment of women is a world wide problem. But how common or uncommon it is, is dependent on the culture of the country. So sexual harassment in Iceland where sexual equality is very high, is rare. Sexual harassment in Egypt on the otherhand is very high.

sites like hollaback would not be needed

I disagree that female newsreaders are expected to show "flesh". Yes they are expected to look attractive and more so than male newsreaders. This double standard is not good. However, I still think the UK is a much more liberal and freer place for women to live than countries like Saudi Arabia where the burkha is required.

Pointing out negative things in the UK does not invalidate people's unhappiness or unease with the burkha.

I don't disagree lesley, but I think the whole 'ban the burqa, emancipate women' argument is a little over simplified.

My comparison to high heels and bras, I still feel, is a valid one. My point is, culturally, we accept that western women freely choose to wear items that are not only restrictive but also physically damaging.

The assumption that western/christian women act out of free choice and that muslim women are controlled by men is horribly patronising to those muslim women who have posted on here. These women have been told that they don't know their own minds, that their husbands control thier lives, who they see and who their friends are. When they deny this, they have been accused of lying.

I too have been in Morocco recently (day trip from Marbella), in a group, but I was still stared at, and had suggestions made to me. I wandered off on my own and was followed by two men who told me it was not safe and strongly suggested I return to the group. This was simply shopping in the middle of the Tangiers in the middle of the day. I was not wearing skimpy clothing but a dress which covered my arms and most of my legs, and flat shoes.

I noticed in Tangiers that there are a variety of religious cultures, many women on the streets ranging from Burkas to more western clothing, but all more covered up than in the UK. The only woman I saw out running was a Western woman who had two men with her.

About 20 miles away in Marbella, I am free to do what I liked without harassment, lie on the beach topless if I wanted, wander about, relax, without a chaperone.

I cannot believe its anything but very primitive to treat women in such a manner. Women are human beings too. Just like men, we benefit from personal freedom, exercise in the fresh air, the need to spend time alone now and then.

There is no social need for women to be covered from head to toe in the UK. So why do they do it? Pressure from families and husbands of course.

The ban on France is on garments covering the face in public places, not specifically the burka. It would cover for example, balaclavas and face masks.

Other cultures adapt and move with the times. Other religions adapt. Can Islam do the same?

i went to morocco years ago before anyone in the UK really knew of islam or muslims like they do now

i had no idea about how to dress there and therefore dressed the same way as i would on the beach at home - sundress, strappy tops, shorts etc

i couldnt understand why the men (very few woman out and about) were so agog - in fact several nearly fell off their scooters.

Nobody told me to cover up but i did feel very uncomfortable.

It is not islam nijinsky, it is a cultural interpretation of islam.

Plenty of islamic women don't wear the hijab, they are still muslim.

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allah is All-Aware of what they do"

[Al Qur'an, Surat An-Nūr Ch: 24 V: 30]"

Why is there a need for the Koran to be so prescriptive about such specific things? Can anyone think of any similar parts of the Bible? It just seems odd that such matters are not covered by general respect for one's fellow human being and men actually have to be told specifically to do this. And now it seems to be interpreted as men only lowering their gaze (judging by the ogling that goes on in Morocco limited experience admittedly) if a woman is wrapped head to toe!

In law, this would be an oddity under the ejusdem generis rule - if you exclude one thing, the assumption is you exclude everything else that is similar. But in this sort of instance, it would legally make more sense not to mention a specific instance as it creates a rebuttable presumption that other similar acts are perhaps acceptable. It confuses the issue in other words. I find it an oddity.

And if Roman law 2500 years ago was able to deal with such concepts by inventing relatively complex rules and sub-rules, why not Sharia law?

Would any Muslims care to comment on how Sharia law updates its principles and moves with the times? Or on the qualifications and legal training to ensure lack of prejudice that its practitioners are required to have? Or perhaps on the call to introduce Sharia courts, particularly in the area of family law, in the UK?

In Morocco it was my 3 dds that felt particularly uncomfortable and threatened by the men staring at us - they'd not experienced anything like it. So in that context I could understand why a woman there might chose to wear a burka. But here in the UK there men as a rule don't behave that way at all - so women don't need to use the burka for that purpose.

Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 

Colossians 3:18

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 

1 Peter 3:1-6

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 

Ezekiel 16:37-41

...therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness. I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. Then I will hand you over to your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you naked and bare. They will bring a mob against you, who will stone you and hack you to pieces with their swords. They will burn down your houses and inflict punishment on you in the sight of many women. I will put a stop to your prostitution, and you will no longer pay your lovers. 

A few bible quotes.

I need to ask the question -

Are Muslim men very voracious?

wubblybubbly - I get your point that women in the West do things for appearance that are uncomfortable or physically damaging. This is not good. And of course women in the west are not free from sexism or pressure from a male culture.

However the wearing of a veil originates from the Wahsabi sect of Islam. This is an extremely oppressive variant of Islam. Saudi Arabia where the Wahsabi sect's religion dominates bans women from doing many ordinary things e.g. driving, dress enforced by military police, women who are raped being given formal punishments, widowed women expected to marry any single BIL's, etc.

I know that some British Muslim women have taken on wearing the veil even though they do not follow this sects version of Islam. I think their reasons for doing so are far more complicated. However, if we are talking about cultural constraints, women in Saudi Arabia are far more constrained than women in the UK.

You are of course being unreasonable as you do not know the facts. I however want to wear a burka but I'm not muslim.

thaigreencurry - I just want to know why - I can't get my head round why people chose to do a complete cover up - unless they're being pursued by a bunch of men of course.

Oh god, yes lesley, I wouldn't dispute that for a minute.

I'm not really defending the hijab or the burqa as such, I see it more in terms of challenging some rather unpleasant stereotypes about muslim women.

Fair enough wubblybubbly

The western expectation for women to "look good" (in the way of news readers being glammed up and bumped of the screen when they hit 45) and the islamic expectation for women to be excessively modest to the point of complete coverage, are both examples of exactly the same thing. Vile sexism.

They are polar opposites, but they they are infact identical. Objectivication of women. At one extreme the object is expected to appear sexually alluring, at the other extreme the object is expected to be covered.

Both unacceptable. At least the first one is what it is, and can be countered. The second one is much more insidious as it it claims to be part of religious practice.

There is surely a middle ground.

Seriously I wouldn't choose to wear one in this country.

After spending a few months in India I was desperate to wear one. I wore full length skirts and long tunic tops but still received lots of unwanted male attention despite being with my husband (including a sexual assualt). I felt that in some peoples eyes I was considered a "whore" because my face and neck were uncovered. India isn't a muslim country and working class women tend to wear a sarong which leaves more flesh uncovered than I had on display.

When I came home from India I felt liberated I thought at last I am free to walk down the street without feeling like a piece of meat. How wrong was I I had been home a couple of days when a lout shouted across the street "Phworr look at the baps on that".

I felt threatened in India because I was in a strange foreign place but in reality women are treated just as badly (if not worse) in this country. why is it acceptable for men to make lewd remarks at young women? Why do we still have half naked women in mainstream newspapers?

I can understand why women want to cover up by wearing the burqa. They are refusing to allow men to judge them on their bodies. Its a shame in this day and age that women have to do this.

montysma1 "At least the first one is what it is, and can be countered. The second one is much more insidious as it it claims to be part of religious practice."

Agree with you totally.

The second one also brings all sorts of ludicrous arguments like "freedom of choice" and many, sadly, are deluded by this argument.

Animation

'Are Muslim men very voracious?'

What a vile question. What do you mean by it? I suspect you mean something quite disgusting but I'm happy to have you correct me....

Thank you Wubblybubbly - very interesting - Lesley33 also. So the Koran and the Bible have similarities. Both seem to be suggesting that modesty is a good thing, both in appearance and behaviour. This causes me no problems whatsoever. And I can imagine that when both were "promulgated", they were dealing with situations at the beginning of the civilised world as we know it, and attempting to instruct certain peoples who were not so civilised as others on how to be behave.

But the Bible is not prescriptive law. It is considered a code of moral guidance. Now, lawyers will tell you that codes of law are formed from codes of morality, but generally laws are seperate from moral codes such as the Koran or the Bible. But Sharia law seems directly taken from the Koran and seems to struggle with updates and changes. The Koran itself is often quoted as some kind of primary legislation to which Sharia law is almost secondary. Why is such an ancient prescriptive moral code still being used as law in the 21st Century?

Some Muslims will tell you this is because the west is corrupt. All I can say is that it can't be that corrupt if women are safe to walk around without being covered in a garment that covers everything but their eyes. To me, thats like treating an ailment with medicine, rather than seeking a cure for the ailment. Its indicative of something bad in society that half of that society have to take such extreme measures in an attempt to ensure their basic safety.

I'd just like to clarify something with regards to the women in Saudi Arabia. Whilst all women, including westerners, have to wear an abaya (and technically cover their hair at all times with headscarf) not all wear the burka/niquab. Certain parts of Saudi Arabia are more relaxed than others. Apparently in Jeddah it is far more relaxed than Riyadh, as is Dhahran.

It is not uncommon to see many of the local women wearing headscarves whilst others are wearing the full coverings including black gloves. It is not true to say ALL women wear or are forced to wear the Burka. I believe a lot of it is down to personal choice.