IABU to think I shouldn't be told off by the police by daring to be a woman out alone after dark?

[MsScarlettInTheLibrary]

I was walking through a deserted cut-through at around 11pm, on my way home. I'd been shopping and to the gym, as evidenced by the bags I carried.

I happened across a pair of policemen on bikes, who saw fit to brake and tell me I 'should be careful walking by myself at this time of night'.

IABU to feel angry and offended by this?

LittleRedDragon, you've again said they told somebody not to walk somewhere. They did NOT do this. And if they're on the way to take a witness statement or on the way back to the station or off doing any manner of other thing that they do on a day to day basis, they will not follow every lone person home on the off chance that something will happen to them. So it's not asking you to do their job. It's the police engaging with the public and raising awareness. And what do you mean by 'do your job'. Speak to nobody? Point out nothing? Raise no awareness? Only ever step in once an actual mugging takes place?

Maybe it is just me then. I don't drive so walk a lot and in winter that would be in the dark a lot. I've always been very aware. Carried my keys in my hand with a key sticking out. Mobile unlocked. I am always very aware of my surroundings though so I would also be the one to spot the owl or the fox. Maybe I am just more aware than average and has assumed others are the same

Bronze - many people don't practice those basic "be aware" things.

I used to live at the end of a long road with trees on both sides, no houses or buildings whatsoever, and then cut across a piece of common land to get home. It was very rare that I passed more than one or two other people on this road and I was often the only one on it at night. A woman was raped there not so long ago. When I walked down the road I took my headphones off and carried my house keys in my hand, but I did see several women wandering along, looking at their phones, listening to music, rummaging in their bags, clearly not particularly aware of what was going on around them. One woman jumped violently when I walked past her as she obviously hadn't heard me coming as she had headphones on.

Not everyone uses their common sense.

''I loathe this idea that feminists are some monolithic entity who can be dismissed as stupid just because you disagree with them. It's the essence of misogyny.'

And women who are not on the Feminist board?

'Oh I've just posted it on the feminist board, just so I can be reassured that women are not all fucking blind and stupid.'

Is that misogynistic?'"

No accusations or name-calling involved LOTM, I dislike sweeping generalisations about any group of individuals and was asking a question of a woman whose viewpoint I respect.

Yes, and she replied by saying my name. I was making it clear that I don't speak on behalf of all feminists in the world.

LRD - no, it doesn't imply that they expect an attack, simply that they are not foolish enough to think that just because the streets SHOULD be entirely safe, does not mean that they ARE safe.

Personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution. It doesn't hurt me in any way to be aware that there are situations where I might be vulnerable, and take some very basic steps to make myself less so.

I don't drive either and walk everywhere. I don't have headphones in, I don't use my phone, I am aware of my surroundings. But sometimes things are going on in my life like my Mum's just had cancer or my Grandma's been rushed to hospital or my dd is poorly or we have money troubles. And I can't switch those thoughts off and my mind my runs over them again and again and my attention does wander a bit. Not enough I hope that it puts me in any danger of wandering out in the road or tripping over something I haven't noticed. But as kungfupanda says, you see plenty of people who don't heed common sense. Nobody can assume that other people approach things in the same way. Somebody might be new to an area or have had a few drinks or be lost or any manner of things and as the police can't assume, they'll approach everybody in the same manner.

Police are doing all they can we do not live in a perfect world nor have we ever lived in one crime happens and it is better to be safe than sorry. The police are not telling her to get off the streets and stay at home they are saying she should be careful which is simple common sense. Not to mention she is carrying a load of shopping which to a potential mugger means she has valuables on her.

The police cannot be everywhere and they do break up groups of nefarious people hanging around when they see them but they can't get everyone so the number one protection is to have your wits about you aka be careful.

I can't imagine that many women aren't "careful" when walking by themselves, in a deserted secluded area, late at night?

Mainly precisely because women are told from the minute they start going out that they are prey, basically. The email circulars (I had a great one once which advised me that women with short hair didn't get raped and always to carry an umbrella or golf club with me ), the fact that most TV cop shows feature women being victimised in highly unpleasant ways, that many people make a right fuss if a woman does announce when will be out by herself after dark etc etc etc. The police comments were in the context of that background. Were they helpful? No I don't think so. Simply adding to the background noise of "Women you are PREY" which is blasted at us all the time. With no actual practical advice whatsoever.

I like the advice about having your car keys to hand. Eh? House keys maybe?

Sorry SOH, you're quite right, and I shouldn't have said that. It's just I'm surprised you're defending these people who weren't doing their jobs properly. Of course they should act if a mugging occurs - but ideally, shouldn't they be trying to anticipate the criminal?

It's still not clear what 'be careful' means in this context. It sounds as if it's totally meaningless, actually - people's replies have ranged from 'well this is what I do with my 3 year old' (er, yes, the OP probably isn't 3) to 'hmm, it's not a good idea to walk around in a dream'.

Like it or not, these officers took it upon themselves to tell someone doing something perfectly normal, to be careful. That implies they thought she was being careless. All she was doing was walking, alone, at night, near her home.

It's a no-brainer: they told her off for doing something totally legal, and why? Because they're trying to blame her.

IME, lots of police officers are great at their jobs and don't see the imply that it's careless to be out alone: they know that it's their responsibility if something happens, and not ours to be restrict what we do.

"I think women who think/presume and expect women to take precautions to avoid being someones' prey are stupid."

Would you prefer that a woman does not take reasonable precautions, becomes a victim of a robbery or an assault that she might, possibly, have been able to escape or avoid, just so that everyone can have a good old shout about how wrong it is?

Martial arts puts a strong emphasis on avoiding getting into difficult situations, and extracting yourself from them as safely as possible. I know several women who are capable of lethal force. Literally capable of killing an attacker. These are strong, confident women. They still advocate, and practice, sensible caution because they are not arrogant enough to think that saying to someone "taking precautions is stupid - the streets should be safe" is enough to protect that person from harm.

Perhaps I was stupid to learn how to disarm a knife-attacker, or disable someone long enough to get away, or quite simply kick seven shades of crap out of someone if necessary. I don't feel stupid. I feel in control and confident. But I would still prefer not to have to find out just how well I learned those lessons.

It's about 'being aware' rather than 'being careful', in my opinion.

I was walking home one night after clubbing, having lost my purse somewhere and a police car pulled up. I was apparently being followed and was oblivious to that. They took me home. I was grateful, not offended in the slightest.

Of course the streets should be safe for anybody to walk on, day or night, but they aren't and you can either take a little responsibility for your own safety or bleat on about it after an assault as if it were a consolation that you were 'in the right'.

I despise the women on this thread who call others names for their views, it's disgraceful. I also question why some people post the same thing on other boards? Do they not know what they think without a group of people behind them telling them?

"I like the advice about having your car keys to hand. Eh? House keys maybe? "

Why the 'eh'?
If you are walking to where you parked your car then it might be sensible not to be fannying around looking for them for ages when you get there. Not to mention the fact that they can be used against an attacker.

"Of course the streets should be safe for anybody to walk on, day or night, but they aren't and you can either take a little responsibility for your own safety or bleat on about it after an assault as if it were a consolation that you were 'in the right'."

That's what I have been trying to say - but you put it much more concisely than me!

kungfu, wouldn't you be in trouble with the police yourself if you tried any of this stuff? I thought the advice was never to try to fight back against someone who attacks you, as you never know how strong they are of it they have a knife or a gun.

"IME, lots of police officers are great at their jobs and don't see the imply that it's careless to be out alone: they know that it's their responsibility if something happens, and not ours to be restrict what we do."

No. If something happens it is the sole responsibility of the perpetrator. Not the victim. Not the police.

The police's job is to try to reduce crime by anticipating it and acting when it does happen - but no-one in their right mind could surely think that they can eradicate it altogether.

A lot of people seem to think that the perfect crime-free society is entirely achievable if everyone just puled their finger out. Wouldn't that be lovely? In the meantime I will continue to act as though I live in an imperfect world.

LittleRedDragon, they are doing their jobs. They are trained from day one to try and prevent crime as much as detect crime. And when out at night they do try and talk to as many people as possible, particularly people on their own in isolated areas.

And maybe 'be careful' is a throwaway comment but what about everything else I said. Two officers on a deserted road, see somebody wandering along. They do not know if they're lost, drunk, high, up to no good, fleeing a crime scene or perfectly safe and happy in their journey home. So as a basic behaviour they stop and make themselves known to you. DH says there are so many reasons why you do it. So they know you're a copper, not just a random person wandering past, to have a presence, raise awareness. He's not asking you to take on a workload, he's not telling you that you're to blame if you ever happen to be the victim of a crime, he's simply doing what he's trained to do. Maybe the wrong words were chosen, maybe the officer was just trying to be helpful. But to state definitively that they weren't doing their jobs or adding to a misogynistic view of rape is just ludicrous.

And the implication that the officer saying it to a woman adds to the weight of the 'women portrayed as naive prey' bullshit (yes it's out there, I admit it), well what about the fact that the police should and do say the same thing to men? And children? How does that fit into the simple assessment of the op made by some?

And I said about my 3yo. Because people were asking what 'be careful' means. Well my 3yo knows what it means. It means don't forget to make an assessment of the situation you're in. Sometimes it's a reassuring, fond statement to show you care about the well being of others.

kung, I mean if something happens, it's the responsibility to do something about it. The blame lies with the perpetrator, but it's their responsibility to respond, isn't it? That's a basic part of the job.

I don't think the police can totally eradicate crime, but I don't think it's on for them to try to make their lives easier by making someone else feel as if they're being careless and inviting crime.

LRD - I understand the concept of reasonable force extremely well. I also have a very good understanding of what my responsibilities are in terms of extracting myself from a situation rather than exacerbating it.

I said earlier up the thread that our senior martial artists are extremely keen to make sure we know how to get ourselves out of a situation and, if possible, avoid getting into one in the first place.

You see I don't assume that they were trying to make their own lives easier. I would assume that they were trying to remind someone to keep themselves safe because they did not want that person to come to harm.

SOH, you've just given a totally plausible reason why these officers should have approached and talked to the OP. But they didn't give her the reasons you suggested, did they? That's the issue.

Maybe we can agree that saying 'be careful' is a bit crap and unprofessional (and, as you say, more appropriate to a child than an adult)?

"Like it or not, these officers took it upon themselves to tell someone doing something perfectly normal, to be careful. That implies they thought she was being careless. All she was doing was walking, alone, at night, near her home"

It's this LRD. We know what the op was doing, we knew she was behaving normally. The police had no idea who she was, what she was carrying and where she was going. They didn't interrogate her, they didn't accuse her, they said something throwaway. We all do it. We all say things that probably aren't the best in the situation but a police officer stopping on a deserted cut through when they encounter a lone individual is never, ever in my book job shirking, misogynistic or patronising.

kungfu 'LRD - I understand the concept of reasonable force extremely well. I also have a very good understanding of what my responsibilities are in terms of extracting myself from a situation rather than exacerbating it.'

Sorry, you've lost me. Explain again please?