To hate the Grand National

[Lucyinthepie]

Well, I do anyway. To quote a discussion on another forum, here's why:
"A total of 35 horses have died at the Grand National since 1999. That means an average of 2.5 horses per year/race. This does not compare to any other equine event held in this country."
There is no other sinlge competetive equine event in the whole of the UK where the horses entered have such a statistically high chance of meeting their death, on the same day every year.
The stats for the whole of racing are bad enough, and there are arguably some callous practises in the industry, where the animals are largely treated as disposable commodities. But, leaving that aside for now - this race - not worth it.

(Don't tell me the owners love their horses, maybe some do, but in my experience working as a groom on a racing yard for a year, the majority think they have some great investment. If the horse is lame they are more worried about when it will race again than the welfare of the horse. They'd be lucky to be able to pick their horse out if it was in a field with 10 others and not wearing their colours).

Well, for anyone who's interested in the rate of equine skeletel maturation debate, here's a link to a scientific paper.

In short, some "experts" and people who consider themselves to be equine professionals argue that you can breed, feed and bring a young horse on to the point where it is perfectly acceptable to start them working at a very early age (as in the racing industry). I am sure Nijinksy will agree and will be happy to oblige with the wisdom that is always quoted to justify this. Often the people who state this as fact have some sort of stake in wanting to start young horses working at a very early age. This article says that is all bollocks. www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

A sensible question was asked, why do people enter horses in the Grand National? No, it is not generally for the prize money, which is not the highest, but for the thrill. How can you explain the thrill to people who are not thrill seekers or competitive? Riders feel the thrill but horses also feel the thrill, horses have an instinct which gels with the rider if you are working well as a team. That is why horses have been used in wars in the past (do you really think horses would willingly go towards cannons and gunfire?). It is the challenge of combining your horse riding skills with the skill of racing against the course and the competitors.

Its a different way of life from what probably the majority on here lead, but there are plenty of people who still rejoice in these skills and in the challenge of testing them. Racing is an ancient sport with an extensive history. I think its tragic that so many people are now so far removed from even basic skills of dealing with large animals or are unaware of the history of horse racing and indeed horsemanship in this country.

But yes, accidents do happen. Accidents happen in life all the time. If we all lived in little padded cells and never challenged ourselves, then we would presumably be safer. But would life be worth living?

Why bring animals into it, I hear you ask. Should horses only be left out in fields to look pretty? The history of humanity is in fact tied up with horsemanship skills. Most civilisations employed these skills to win wars and advance society. I personally like to see these links preserved in modern sporting contests.

Compare my horse to a racehorse. He is a 17.2 warmblood showjumper and 14 years old. If he were a racehorse he would be retired by now. Instead he is still competing most weekends (much more than a racehorse) and turning fast on his hocks against the clock. He is far too excitable to be ridden by a novice and needs to be stabled in winter. He is even too difficult for a novice to lead out in hand and feed (he bites), but fortunately for him, unliked most showjumpers, I hack him out. But he has never been ill treated, has loads of attention, the best of care and plenty of feed and exercise. I however have no interest in providing a horse which does not work with a giant field to roam in and expensive care, except when he has retired (he will have earned it). Generally though warmbloods have lower life expectancy than Throroughbreds.

NB racehorses tend to look exhausted but recover quickly. Don't go by looks alone. TV cameras hardly focus on fatal accidents since the general public want them to be glossed over.

The news reports I read online also mentioned the unseasonably hot weather. I struggle to understand why they couldn't modify the course to take this into account. Or postpone it. However, I personally agree with OP, I hate this particular race with a fecking passion. "Obstacles" my arse. They are dead horses. I cannot understand why fatalities are glossed over like it doesn't matter. It was too hot to run the race today, do the RSPCA never step in in cases like this? Surely finding a witness to the cruelty today wouldn't be too difficult...

And if you happen to be having a neb on MN, Ms Femaleoveruseofthewhipjockey, come in and have a little chat. Let's see what you're like without a whip in your hand.

horses want to run the grand national fro the 'thrill?' Bollocks. They run the race because they have been conditioned to do, so in the same way that animals will work themselves to death.

I didn't know that 2 horses had died . I don't know why I watch it really; part of me enjoys it but I feel ill when I see a horse fall.

I don't live far from there so I hate that the entire city is affected for the duration, and I dread the train home from work on Ladies Day as it's full of drunk orange people*

Disclaimer; I once went to Ladies Day many years ago and was quite drunk and probably orange

YANBU, it's almost gladiatorial.

OP thank you thank you thank you for starting this thread.

I was on MN earlier and I saw a 'Who will you bet on' thread and it made me feel sick.

I absolutely loathe horseracing. I own two thoroughbreds, both of them ex-racehorses and both of them were mistreated when it was no longer viable for them to race. They were both quite successful when they were racing and one of them damaged a tendon in the last race he ran. Instead of giving the horse box rest for months as is common in the rest of the equestrian industry, the owners decided to pin fire him. This means they got a red hot poker and seared his legs where the tendons are in the hope of somehow soldering it back together again so he could race again within a month. Barbaric and medieval torture.

Needless to say, IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK and he was then dumped out in a field and left to starve. My other horse has an equally sad story.

This is the racing industry for you. Anything for a quick buck. They don't give a shit about the horses.

My horses were lucky, I came along and paid peanuts for them both and they're now back to full health after a long struggle. In fact, my vet told me when I bought them it'd probably be kinder to put them down as they were so skinny.

So for those of you who are trying to justify the Grand National and other races, don't waste your breath. I just hope someone who actually cares about horses comes along and does an expose on the racing industry's treatment of the animals and maybe we'll have the same kind of outcry about this that fox hunting, bull fighting, bear baiting, Hughs Fish Fight have all enjoyed.

Still nothing right with mass production of animals in this fashion. What happens with mass production of anything? Waste.
Except it's not too many forks or ringpulls or elastic bands or cans of coke - it's lives. Proper lives.
Life, of anything, has value. Before anything we have in this world, we have one thing:life. And it's the one thing which is of the ultimate value to it's owner.
Too much of something? Freely available? Wastage. Cold hard wastage and nobody sees true value (that which is not monetary).
Therefore it's easier to shoot weak newborn foals than raise them and find them a home.
It's fine to use things which we have over-produced for our own gain, because there will always be more.
That's where it all goes wrong. Where the moral line gets fuzzy.
Can't see the line for the green stuff (hint:I'm not talking about grass).
And I know it means a lot to our social existence, but stripped back, it is the common element. And it should be thought about more.

[comes over all philosophical]

There you go. And I've not even had any wine tonight!

WineComesInAtTheMouth its April for gods sake. In Northern Europe. Get things in perspective. Dehydration happens now and then. It was dealt with properly. It is not a major medical issue, unless left untreated. The horse would have been given electrolytes. Are you really suggesting it would be in any animal's welfare to be contantly prepared for and taken to a race, only to be taken back again because on the morning it was quite a warm spring day, just in case so-called animal lovers (most of whom only see a horse once a year on telly) think it might be cruel?

Lucyinthepie why are you now changing the debate to something else? I think you have quite an agenda about horseracing which has much more than to do with the Grand National. You are no doubt aware that the counter arguement is that stressing youngsters legs actually aids the construction of healthy bone. I personally am against the trend towards sprinters and milers and in favour of late maturing horses who can stand their racing well. There have been plenty notable examples in recent years of such horses, even in flat racing. But this is a completely different arguement all together, and requires a different thread.

"Therefore it's easier to shoot weak newborn foals than raise them and find them a home."

The only new born foals I have ever heard anyone putting to sleep are those with deformed limbs who will not come right with veterinary treatment. They just cost too much to produce not to keep for breeding or hopefully sale otherwise. But there are some which will never lead a healthy life and will encounter problems standing, grazing and functioning. And yes then sadly it may be kinder to put to sleep. Considering how much most sensible breeders invest in breeding, this is a decision that no one ever wants.

Browncoats, you can't possibly own two thoroughbreds, people only want warmbloods or cobs. One of my nicest horses was an ex racehorse, surprisingly, I had to rehab him myself. The racing professionals didn't do that, they just sold him down the line, as happens to so many. I outbid the meat man for him.
I had to sigh when I followed the Animalaid link and read about their "Queen Mother Fund". They obviously don't realise that one of her National winners was rescued from a field in a terrible state by an ex-racehorse charity. And a documentary once highlighted the plight of another of her horses, found in a selling race in France. (He wasn't placed so went for meat).
For those who have strong stomachs, go now and look at the Daily Mail photos. Nobody can put a spin on that, that is the reality for the horses (and the jockeys).

Yes it was very hot today. I would hope that the owners would act in the horses interest rather than worrying about what spectators might think but nijinsky has made it quite clear that the horse's wellbeing is the very last thing considered.

"Very few people outside racing would want pure TBs as they are too narrow, too fine boned and too thin skinned for the average rider. People generally want warmbloods or cobs, so there would be no TBs if there was no racing."

Sorry, I just have to pick up on this nijinski. What an absolute pile of bollocks. Do you know what you're talking about? The yard I have my horses on is about 40% pure TB. And for the most part, these are just normal riding amature competition horses. Check your facts before you post on a forum where a lot of people are likely to know more than you. FFS

No Lucy etc if racing were banned, people would start only deliberately breeding warmbloods or cobs and fewer TBs, because they are bred specifically for racing. I am sure you understand this perfectly well, but there is something duplicitous in your pretence not to.

Browncoats I've worked in racing, I jump BS, do county level workers and yes, I am quite happy to state I know what I am talking about. And I certainly wouldn't buy a pure TB for a showjumper or worker. Very few people would. Your'e talking through a very large hole in your head.

"I also decided not to introduce the rate of skeletal maturation in horses, a la Dr Deb Bennet. I don't think it's the right audience do you? "

Lucieinthepie yes it absolutely is the right audience - please talk about it. Tell people these racehorses are backed at far too young and age and what damage that does to their skeletons. People need to know this shit. While there are ignorant people believing "experts" like Nijinski

Nijinsky, I posted the Dr Deb paper because you said: "Of course racing 2 and 3 year olds and emphasising speed and early maturity at the expense of stamina and longevity brings its own risks, which I note have not been mentioned on here."

This is why I posted, I don't need to have a "hidden agenda" here, if I wanted to discuss something else I'd have no hesitation in doing so:

Well, I do anyway. To quote a discussion on another forum, here's why:
"A total of 35 horses have died at the Grand National since 1999. That means an average of 2.5 horses per year/race. This does not compare to any other equine event held in this country."
There is no other sinlge competetive equine event in the whole of the UK where the horses entered have such a statistically high chance of meeting their death, on the same day every year.
The stats for the whole of racing are bad enough, and there are arguably some callous practises in the industry, where the animals are largely treated as disposable commodities. But, leaving that aside for now - this race - not worth it.

However, in the spirit of Mumsnet, if people want to stray "off topic" I'll happily play along. It's not against the rules here.

I dont want to go into a anti/pro racing debate.
However I thought I might clear a few things up and explain some things that have been mentioned.

Please feel free to take it or leave it!

• Horse racing is held at a number of courses every day of the week. No other equine discipline does this. There are some mid week showjumping shows, but nearly everything is held on weekends only. This and the greater number of competetive racehorses in comparison to other competetive horses in other disciplines is fairly influential in the greater number of race horse deaths compared to other competetive horses.

-However, horses die or suffer catastrophic injury (defined by being career or life ending) in all disciplines. Spring Along, an Olympic event horse, died whilst completing his cross country at Gatcombe last week. Showjumpers break down frequently, show animals die of lamanitis (a disease affecting the feet) every day.

-Because racing is open more for public veiwing due gambling everything must be transparent. Clare Balding was required to tell the public of the two deaths today. This is the law with any televised race. Lamenesses must be disclosed after a race. The use of oxygen must be made public. Horse racing is so much better goverened in regards to welfare. In other sports there is no need to disclose such info. If the only way to keep your dressage/showjumper on the road is to inject its joints every 12 weeks you are allowed.

• Todays winner must of been in a pretty bad way. I have never seen a horse not come to the winners enclosure and I watch racing most days. It was not normal for him to not return at the end of the race. The horse was very very tired although would be fine now.

• Pretty much every jockey dis mounted at the end of todays race. Did anybody notice A P McMoy panicking to un-do Dont Push Its girth? It was very hot for an early april day. No horse would of had the opputunity to train or be prepared to run in todays heat. That has got to be a factor in the limited number of finishers today.

-Lastly, horse and animal abuse is everywhere. Either through ignorance, incompetance or just plain evil. At least racehorses are managed by knowlegable people.

Like I said just thought I would post some comments on what has been mentioned. I would love to think I may of educated someone but I am not trying to change anybodies opinions.

In all animal sport, we need to continue to strive for better welfare, better opportunities for sport horses at the end of their career, and to aim to improve breeding of horses not only to decrease the number of wasted animals but to improve strengh and suitability for purpose in order to reduce wastage, lameness, injury and death.

As you were.

YANBU - I'm glad I am not alone in thinking this race is barbaric. Watched it as we had friends over but had to leave the room half way through. It's disgusting how acceptable it all seems.

Really appalled at mnhq making the Grand National thread one of their threads of the day.

Many many people have a gut reaction of abhorrance towards this awful race.

I feel 100 times more repulsed by the death of horses in the name of sport than I do about the advertising of formula milk for infants, for instance.

OK - anyone who wants some "science" please look here. I can't copy and paste a whole article.
Incidentally, it answers Nijinksy's suggestion that you can somehow build healthy bone by stressing limbs. www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
Nijinksy, no I don't believe that people would stop wanting or riding thoroughbred horses if the racing industry somehow magically came to an end. I am not being duplicitous at all, I know enough people who love TB's to know that is complete nonsense. TB's, luckily, can do a variety of jobs, and do.

can you get odds on which horses will die ?