children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

[AliGrylls]

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

Winter you are tying yourself in knots.

How do expalin all the bad stuff then innit?

No, I don't think that Winter is denying 'evil' acts. She's denying the idea of evil as a seperate entity (I think). Although I don't need to speak for her.

Actually, I don't really disagree with what Winter has said with regards to human nature and evil.

Rose, can you define this evil entity that you believe in? Are we talking satan and his little imps?

Nah pretty much same what you said.

See, I struggle with the Satan idea, because it basically absolves people of responsibility. It makes victims of us all.

I would entirely agree.

I find you very obscure Winter, Where is this wonderful society where everyone is equal and no one is exploited? Why do we have girls from the 3rd world and eastern Europe shipped in for the sex trade-and held against their will? Would you care to name the country?

Chicken what you say (and what I agree with) is different to what winter is saying.

In what way, Rose?

So human nature only is true if we are all the same?

Bad stuff is a very different term, don't you think? But yes, more accurate IMO. People do bad things. What is determined to be a bad thing is not always the same over time or to all people, bad is generally subjective. Bad things is a spectrum. Bad things actions of individuals.

Evil, well thats a loaded term. You could mean evil as a seperate entity. Or you could mean evil as in "something people do which makes them other, less human", which I find all a bit too easy to distance ourselves from people who do bad things.

Depends on how you mean it really. Are you a moral absolutist, religious fundamentalist, moral relativist, universalist? I did ask you for a definition, but you declined in favour of attempting to make me look stupid. Epic fail.

If my children decided to abandon Jesus I would spray them in manure before school.

Where is the country where no one is exploited?

"How do expalin all the bad stuff then innit?"
so evil is bad stuff?

You don't seem to be able to follow your own terminology. What do you mean by human nature if not the nature of humans? Surely if you think there is a human nature, it must mean all humans, no?

And who said that there was a utopia where all is wonderful? I said not all cultures produce porn. You did run away with that.

I did ask you for a definition, but you declined in favour of attempting to make me look stupid. Epic fail.

Winter that is parnoid. I already asked you a question as you said it does not exsist at all- that you refused to answer.

Human nature does not equal idenitcal robot. It means the way we act, feel, think etc naturally- but uniquely.

Which culture has no porn and no prostitutes?

I prefer the term 'bad shit' to 'evil'...much less loaded.

Then its an individual nature, not a human nature. The term is nonsensical, I'm glad to see you agree once you've thought about it.

No Winter you are misunderstanding.

Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics, including ways of thinking, feeling and acting, that humans tend to have naturally.

Notice the word 'ways'- this shows us it is not a one size-fits-all.

It is quite a common,widely accepted term.

Individuals are human! Humans look after themselves first! Where is the society which has no porn and doesn't exploit women? (women being weaker)

I am off out. I will catch up later and hope to find out which society doesn't exploit women.

Yes, thats my point. Look above at exotics points "human nature is obvious, most questions boil down to money or power". What about native american languages that had no concept of ownership? Not all about money and power. Thats just one example.

There are no ways that all humans think feel and act. They are all culturally derived, time dependent, and subjective. Ergo, there is no such thing as human nature.

This is my opinion, I do not expect you to share it, however you should not be so discourteous as to insist I do not understand my own position. It is not a unique one. Most post-modernists and most radical socialists, amongst others, share it.

Well I think human nature is a pretty accepted term.

Why are not answering exoticsquestions?

You've never heard it debated? Have you never read Chomsky, or Kant? Perhaps you should read more in depth if you are going to assert things are just "accepted terms", so few things actually are.

In wide culture and society is it an accepted term; there are different theories but as term it is accepted. If a minority want to debate that does not mean it is not generally accepted.

Why have not answered exotic.

I think winters explanation was pretty good. What winter is saying (IMO) is that human nature is not intrinsic, but rather something that adapts to different cultural contexts.

What's the obsession with porn and the exploitation of women? People have always enjoyed looking at mucky pics (the sexual imperative?) what's it got to do with the price of fish?

I'm probably being dense, but with regards the porn thing: it can be about power, certainly, but as all sexually mature organisms tend to go at it like the proverbial rabbits, couldn't it also just be about, well, sex?