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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

814 replies

AliGrylls · 07/04/2011 12:05

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

OP posts:
Prunnhilda · 08/04/2011 10:44

Have you never seen Horrible Histories?
Cloacina, goddess of the sewers
In fact here's a list

Prunnhilda · 08/04/2011 10:46

Subrincinator
God of weeding

Potina
Goddess of children's drinks

Snorbs · 08/04/2011 10:52

Roseflower, I thought your position was that there was a strong link between religion and morals. Apologies if I've misunderstood.

So you agree that the religious are choosing to follow their religion's code of conduct because they think it's the right thing to do and that the fear of punishment for transgression is irrelevant, yes?

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 10:53

  1. the list is clearly headed, "minor gods" - I would suggest that many of these are little more than local deities or even what we would describe in a Christian system as "patron saints", incorporated from earlier belief systems - this would also explain the considerable duplication, both within the list and with the major gods

  2. the majority of them still explain quite big phenomena in a pre-scientific world (fertility, childbirth, menstruation, destiny)

  3. none of them is the god of if-I-stick-this-knife-in-your-heart-you-will-fall-over

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 10:55

To be clear - while these gods and goddesses may intervene in the events they take under their protection, they ARE not the thing. The sun god IS the sun; the goddess of menstruation is not menstrual blood, nor is the goddess of sewers the sewer system.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 10:58

The bible provides an excellent framework for morals.What I said was people can choose to follow it or not.

I cannot answer for every religious person; we are all individuals you know!

Relgious people are still humans and do good things for all sorts of reasons.

Prunnhilda · 08/04/2011 10:58

I did laugh at point 3, MIFLAW (you didnt have to go quite that far to correct me Grin). No it's a fair point, they are all quite big deal things, and eg weeding was going to mean the difference between eating or not (not, as in my garden, a minor irritation).

DuelingFanjo · 08/04/2011 11:25

the bible may, but it's not the only framework for a moral upbringing. You, rose, say that people can choose to follow it or not but then you do also say that peoiple who don't have religion are denying their children some kind of choice.

I wonder why morals were even brought into this whole debate when clearly everyone does understand that morality is not dependant upon being religious.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 11:31

I never once said "peoiple who don't have religion are denying their children some kind of choice".

The third post someone has made an assumption based on nothing. Why is this?

MillyR · 08/04/2011 13:16

My children have been brought up without a religion, and I would say the basis of their morality is that they have empathy, so do not like to witness, much less cause, suffering of other people or animals. I would say that is true for many humans.

So, for example, you don't primarily shut a gate because the farmer will shout at you. You shut a gate because it would cause you distress if a lamb ran out on to the road and was killed.

They understand that most social rules are put in place to make things easier for other people. Within school, rules are maintained almost always be reward rather than punishment. They also understand that morality is mainly based on the context rather than an absolute set of rules, as is the same with every other kind of decision making.

But the basis of morality has to be love, compassion and empathy, not fear of retribution. I think that most children are brought up to understand that, whether they are religious or not.

SanctiMoanyArse · 08/04/2011 13:19

I am a former Atheist that now has a faith'; albeit not a CHurchy one (Quaker, although cannot make meetings ATM unavidably)

Parents raised me to think religion = psychiatric illness- guess what? All of us have a faith LOL, although fairly liberal versions of.

I don't raise my kids in any one way: I teach them RE and to make up tehir own minds. I am far more interested in teaching morals etc- kindness and charity more important IMO than any faith.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 13:26

But the basis of morality has to be love, compassion and empathy, not fear of retribution. I think that most children are brought up to understand that, whether they are religious or not.

Beautifully said Milly

Bonsoir · 08/04/2011 13:43

"You shut a gate because it would cause you distress if a lamb ran out on to the road and was killed."

Really? I would shut the gate because it is not my gate and not for me to decide to leave it in any other way than the way in which I found it. Love, compassion and empathy are nice, but actually I am more in favour of morality based on responsible behaviour.

MillyR · 08/04/2011 13:55

I think that wanting to behave responsibly is a consequence of empathy. If you want to shut a gate because it is somebody else's gate, it is because you are taking the feelings of the gate owner into account, and believe that their feelings and motivations are at least as important as your own.

Bonsoir · 08/04/2011 14:12

I don't think it goes that far. I don't have feelings for individuals when I behave in a socially responsible manner - just a general feeling that my footprint in life should be as small as possible. Don't disturb the world unless you have a valid reason to do so.

MillyR · 08/04/2011 14:22

I like that explanation a lot Bonsoir.

exoticfruits · 08/04/2011 17:24

*You need to come clean exotic and realsie and be true to yourself, your father may have banged on about it as a child and as a teen, but your an adult now and you don't need to rebel any longer

To you religion is there as you wanted only to rebel, that isn't a logical reason to go to church or have faith - just to spite your father*

I have just got back to it.
I am rather long in the tooth to rebel ivykate. I simply made my own mind up.
I got on very well with my father, he has been dead for 20yrs so rebelling would be a bit pointless.
UnQuietDad reminds me very much of him- he has looked at the evidence and it is obvious to him there is no god, and he thinks it is obvious to any sane person- and his DCs in particular- that they can look at the evidence for themselves and they would agree with him (unless needy, immature nutcases who have difficulty making friends). My father had the same view. I looked at the evidence and thought differently and I am a sane, emotionally well balanced, mature person.
His DCs may agree BUT they may not -and any mention that they are free agents and I am told I am missing the point because UnQuietDad has weighed the evidence and he knows and his DCs will know! Life isn't like that and parents can't tell DCs what to think. They can control a lot but they are not thought police.

exoticfruits · 08/04/2011 17:34

Experience of life must tell you that people don't follow their parents views!
If I was to start as AIBU saying (as an adult)

AIBU not to go to church because my mother wants me to?

or

AIBU my mother is upset because I go to church and she brought me up to think it was all a myth?

I can guarantee that there would be an almost unanimous reaction of YANBU, you are an adult and you don't have to please your mother! Followed by a lot of anecdotes about control freak parents.

exoticfruits · 08/04/2011 17:44

And if you are a MIL you must be wrong in your views!

Just imagine MIL saying 'I am really upset as DIL won't have my grandchildren christened' or MIL saying 'I am so upset I won't go-my DIL is having the grandchildren christened-how can she believe such mumbo jumbo'.

Absolutely everyone would say butt out MIL -nothing to do with you! Which of course it isn't. DCs have absolute freedom to make up their own minds-and THEY WILL.

purplebrickroad · 08/04/2011 17:53

UQD on the Student Union. I found them very assertive in their attempts to recruit me. Especially in what they called there Mission Week, when I had to move elsewhere for a few days.

As you were.

NorthernGobshite · 08/04/2011 18:00

I teach my dd that we (me and dh) don't believe in god but she is free to believe in whatever she wants. I would rather she made her own mind up than have religion thrust upon her. I hope she sees sense and chooses athiesm but it's not up to me, nor will I coerce her. She learns about all religions at school, we talk about different religions and cultures at home and that has to be better than a narrow world view being given to her in the name of some god.

DuelingFanjo · 08/04/2011 18:05

I won't be teaching my son that I don't believe in God until someone starts trying to force God on him. Up to that point I just won't be mentioning God at all. That's what annoys me, that I even have to bother trying to combat the god-botherers. My default position is we live a life with an absence of any religion, but at some point someone will try to mess that up.

exoticfruits · 08/04/2011 18:24

How dreadful- must censor what DC hears in case they are 'messed up' and disagree with Mum!

I think the whole MIL bit puts is into perspective. Can you imagine someone saying they are really upset because MIL is anti religion and feels so strongly she won't go to her own grandchild's christening, or MIL putting on pressure for a christening because she thinks it important?

People would be apoplectic-'how dare this dreadful woman dictate?'

Why is it different if you are the parent. Why should you have any say? Why should you feel they are 'messed up' if they dare to think for themselves and not follow the parental line?

I think I have said enough. The whole thread is pointless-parents are not that important in their views-the DCs will make up their own minds, they always do. (and if they are very weak willed DIL will step in and tell PIL to mind their own business!).

I still utterly fail to see why it matters if your DCs thinks differently. It doesn't alter the relationship.

ivykaty44 · 08/04/2011 18:27

yes exotics that is what I said you are now an adult and do not need to rebl - which = you are now too long in the tooth to rebel it is the same thing.

yes I agree with you about your AIBU scenario - its juts you bang on about it, then bang on again some more and then a bit more

which leaves me thinking you protest to much about not agreeing with our parents a bit too much and only you will know why.

DuelingFanjo · 08/04/2011 18:32

I don't mind at all if DS thinks differently but he should be free to find out for himself, nit have something thrust on him as a child. IMO DS came into the world without any religion and for me that is the natural state. I am not religious in any way, never have been, so it will not form a part of my or his life unless he decides at some point that he has faith in some kind of god.